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HeliTorque :: View topic - which one to learn to fly R22/R44?
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HeliTorque Forum Index » Wannabes

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which one to learn to fly R22/R44? Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
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Jen
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hughes500 wrote:

If you are going to fly, fly in a proper helicopter, not one that has severe limitations and one that was designed to teach you to fly.


I wasn't sure if you were talking about the 300c, R22, R44 or JR?!
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spl23
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jen wrote:
Hughes500 wrote:

If you are going to fly, fly in a proper helicopter, not one that has severe limitations and one that was designed to teach you to fly.


I wasn't sure if you were talking about the 300c, R22, R44 or JR?!


I think he was referring to the same limitations of the R22 as a training machine that Schweizer point out in a not-too-subtle fashion in their adverts for the 300! (Principally the low rotor inertia issue that makes autos in the R22 a bit nerve-wracking...) To be fair, even Frank Robinson doesn't recommend using the R22 for training.
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Flying Foxy
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll let H500 answer your first line there but his last line from the reply above refers to the R22 being used a lot for training - the reason for this is that it's a less expensive machine to buy than the H269 so schools tend to purchase these - whereas the H269 was designed for training and the 3 blade m/r has a lot more inertia in it than the R22's 2 blade m/r. Also a 'conventional' cyclic rather than a 'T-bar'.

I'd love to have learned in the B206 - my experience there is limited to a 30 minute jolly for familiarisation then the few hours on our super trip to Gothenburg on 2004. Great bird to fly!

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Hughes500
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jen

What I mean by a helicopter is one that has proper controls and doesnt try to kill you if a student does something slightly stupid.
Having done my conversion with a famous pilot and examiner he showed me what I shouldnt do with the machine, to use his words the machine is very limited compared to what you are used to.
So as you know I am rated on 22,44 and rated and used to 300,AS355,SA341,206,500 and examiner on all but 355. Personally the R44 is fine as long as you fly it straight and level from a to b. The R22 should not be used as a training helicopter. Schools love it because it uses 2 gal less fuel than a 300 and students on average take 10 to 20% longer to pass as it is difficult to fly compared to the more stable 300. For those non believers you can take you hand off the cylic in the hover for anything from 5 to 20 secs, try that in a 22!!!!!!
I ll duck down into my trench and take cover from the R22 brigade now
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spl23
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hughes500 wrote:
The R22 should not be used as a training helicopter. Schools love it because it uses 2 gal less fuel than a 300 and students on average take 10 to 20% longer to pass as it is difficult to fly compared to the more stable 300.


Surely for training purposes the fact that the 22 is difficult to fly is actually an advantage? I learnt to fly fixed-wing on the Cessna 152, which is basically vice-free and practically flies / lands itself - but I do know that this means that transferring to anything more complicated is going to be a lot of work, as pretty much everything else is harder to fly. With the 22, I get the impression that most other helis are actually easier to fly, which means you have to learn to fly properly from the start.

Hughes500 wrote:
For those non believers you can take you hand off the cylic in the hover for anything from 5 to 20 secs, try that in a 22!!!!!!


Is that true? For someone used to the R22, that is pretty staggering.
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Jen
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, seeing as I can't hover for 5-20 seconds with my hand on the cyclic... Laughing

I understand what you're saying. At this point I don't see I have much of a choice. I like my school, I get on really well with my instructor and I even like the little R22. I don't have limitless money. Am I taking an unacceptable risk learning in the R22?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Am I taking an unacceptable risk learning in the R22?


No! I don't think so - as sure many other thousands of Robinson pilots don't.

The machine isn't the problem, it's the ability or lack of of the pilot to fly the machine 100% of the time. If you do the factory course in Torrance they ll show you just how forgiving the machine can be. LISTEN to your instructor and fly the machine.

Yes I d rather run around in a 206 or twin squirrel but its a luxury that most of us cant afford.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PilotWolf wrote:
Quote:
Am I taking an unacceptable risk learning in the R22?


No! I don't think so - as sure many other thousands of Robinson pilots don't.

The machine isn't the problem, it's the ability or lack of of the pilot to fly the machine 100% of the time. If you do the factory course in Torrance they ll show you just how forgiving the machine can be. LISTEN to your instructor and fly the machine.

Yes I d rather run around in a 206 or twin squirrel but its a luxury that most of us cant afford.

W.


Well said, the R22 is at the bottom of the range, price and kit and everything, thats why it is used for training. Pretty much every new helicopter is going to be better than the R22 but that costs money. I mean wouldn't it be nice to have so much power you didn't have to worry, the helicopter was much larger, much more stable in the wind, far higher quality of componants and kit. But then you wouldn't be able to afford to learn.

You make do with what you've got and i think often learning on something harder can make you better. If you can fly/drive/ride it then your bound to be better on something easier.
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spl23
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jen wrote:
Am I taking an unacceptable risk learning in the R22?


Have a look at the AAIB accident reports involving the R22. The vast majority (3/4?) of them seem to be handling errors in the hover or near the ground on take-off or landing. That said, in a majority of them, the report states that the helicopter was destroyed, but the occupants walked away either unharmed or with minor injuries. It looks as if it is relatively easy to write-off an R22, but that you have a very good chance of making it out alive even if you do so.
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JeffHall
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:46 pm    Post subject: R22 or R44 - I made the choice.. Reply with quote

Some months ago now I asked the very same question - which to choose.

To cut a long story short, after ~12hrs of the R22 I decided to switch to the R44, principally on the basis that it is the helicopter I eventually want to fly my partner and her son around in..

Yes logically I could have done the R44 type rating after and if it was an entirely cost based decision thats what I would have done, however I believe in the long run the overall costs won't be that different given the R44 is viewed as slightly easier than the R22.

My other thought was that hrs on type will count for me in the eventual SFH situation when things like insurance come up in conversation - who would you rather insure? A pilot with 5hrs on type or someone who's done maybe 30-40hrs?

The one thing that did surprise me was that I was apparently the schools first person to do his/her 1st Solo in an R44!

Anyhow - I am in total agreement with Mr JTL, the R44 is the way to go if you can afford it & besides - I love it Smile

Jeff Hall
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Jen
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it would certainly cheer up my instructor no end. He's frequently to be seen gazing wistfully at this one while I do the preflight checks on the R22 Laughing

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=5696628&nseq=0
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JeffHall
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jen - I doubt your instructor minds too much what he/she flies, afterall they'll be getting paid to fly and teach you at the same time!

More likely they'll be hoping you want to 'upgrade' to the more expensive helicopter option - although I'm not convinced in this current financial climate an R44 would be any/much more profitable than an R22..

Just enjoy what you can, only you will know when/if its time to switch.

Jeff Hall
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jen

Dont worry about the R22 it is a good machine but with some big limitations. As I said it was not designed for training but as a 1+1 personal transport machine for the US market to " replace cars", hence the key, seatbelts etc etc. It has a smaller comfort envelope for the instructor than most other types.
For us larger gentlemen it is too cosy !!
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Bomb_Doctor
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the replies......

In my case, I think R22 is out of the question because of my size/weight - unless I get some replies from the Anorexic Instructors Forum. What's the point of stuggling on the power limits when there are other alternatives.

So if you lot had the choice between a R44 and a Jet Ranger (money no object) which one would you chose? (from a learners perspective).
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bomb_Doctor wrote:
What's the point of stuggling on the power limits when there are other alternatives.


It teaches you sustained limited power operations. And from what I understand, the bigger machines are just the same - they all have a maximum weight, which when you get close to, starts to get trickier on the power front.

(For what it's worth, I learnt on R22, with not a dissimilar set of "physical circumstances" to you, Bomb_doctor...)

Bomb_Doctor wrote:
So if you lot had the choice between a R44 and a Jet Ranger (money no object) which one would you chose? (from a learners perspective).


Money no object? Probably the JetRanger... if money is no object now, then later you're not really going to be wanting an R44, are you? It'd be an A109. Or B222. So learn on the one that's going to be most appropriate! Wink
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