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HeliTorque :: View topic - Stall turn (tail slide)...or whatever you call it..
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HeliTorque Forum Index » Flight Dynamics

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Stall turn (tail slide)...or whatever you call it.. Goto page 1, 2  Next
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tegwin
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:48 pm    Post subject: Stall turn (tail slide)...or whatever you call it.. Reply with quote

Not sure of the technical term for this...

But basically... Start in a hover, accelerate to air taxi height and around 30kts...

Pull back on the stick and allow the nose to come up steeply.... hold the collective still and allow the torque reaction to turn the aircraft through 180 degrees before slipping forwards on a reciprocal course to go back the way you came from...

Now my question.... would you start this manuver(sp?) with a tail wind....thus when you complete your torque turn you have the wind on your nose and wont slide off the bubble into the ground?.... Or viceaversa.... Just curious really...not something I plan on trying lol!
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that sounds so bad@$$! haha like are we talking about doing this at hover altitude?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:01 am    Post subject: Flight Dynamics Reply with quote

It's called a "hammerhead" and I wouldn't go doing it from air taxi height if you intend to use the helicopter again. Laughing

I don't think it makes much difference but the greatest effective lift will be created where the airflow over the blades is the greatest. Since you want the greatest climb rate initially before the 180, flying into the wind would be best. Some pilots kick in some torque pedal to really spin it around.

Then after the maneuver is complete, the pilot goes to have their head examined.

"Don't try this at home kids". Laughing

Did it in a Bell 206 once. That was enough. Rolling Eyes
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Last edited by afterburner on Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jen
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

is this one?


Watch this Video in a New Window
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a waste of a 206 Sad

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:35 am    Post subject: Flight Dynamics Reply with quote

Jen wrote:
is this one?


Hey Jen, where'd you get my picture! hahahaha
Nah, not me, but I did the same thing but from a much safer altitude.

tegwin,
This guy was lucky. Another 5 feet lower, and it really would be a "wasted 206".

This maneuver is not for an amateur.....only very skilled.....or nutty pilots. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually that is called an "Ag turn" (for agricultural) and is used by crop dusters in both fixed wing and helicopter. It's not a good maneuver to be doing to show off, as the 206 pilot in the video shows. The military also uses it but calls it "RTE" (Return to engagement). Imagine having a helicopter gunship rocket your position and now wants to turn around smartly to add a little cannon work... The military considers it rather risky since it's a high workload time and rather easy to fly it into the ground. A hammerhead, at least in an airplane is done at higher altitude, and involves going vertical, and actually falling tail first until enough speed is available to flip the plane nose down with the rudder (and a little help with engine torque.)
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of different terms for lots of variations on a theme.
The chopper version of a wing-over (a rotor-over?)
A torque turn
Ag turn
It sure as heck isn't a hammerhead, which will kill you in anything other than a rigid rotor like a BO105, BK117 or mil machine like an NH90.

A torque turn is best done DOWNWIND, so that when you have peaked out and are turning around, you have more airspeed than groundspeed, adding to safety. You also don't start as low as that goose in the video. Starting downwind (if at an airshow) adds to the groundspeed past the adoring crowd to increase the "Oooohhh!" factor. Pull up to about 45 degrees, let the speed decay a little, and before it disappears, FLY the aircraft FLAT around the corner, adding a little collective to help with the torque. (Imagine the machine on a flat piece of paper, and fly it around a flat turn without getting roll into it.) Stop the turn with pedal to line up where you want to go. Then lower the lever a little, let the speed build up, and fly away on the reciprocal heading.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ascend_Charlie wrote:
Lots of different terms for lots of variations on a theme. It sure as heck isn't a hammerhead,


Flew up-wind with 206 perfectly level. We increased collective/throttle and pulled almost perfectly vertical. As it climbed up about 50ft, collective/throttle were reduced, copter slowed, and CP applied full right rudder. The copter rotated, the rudder released and we let the it go down line. Pulled out and return to level flight at approximately the same spot where we entered and pulled up.

You call it what you will. We did it in the 206, the Command Pilot called it a hammerhead, and being scared out of my pants, believed him to this day, and by description, it sure seems to fit.

Never heard of the AG turn. Don't fly helis in AG ops, but can understand why it would be used.

As for the military....yes, saw it first hand. Huey gunship. You needn't explain it to me.

What you describe in the fixed wing is a "tail slide". Done all the time at airshows.

I fail to understand why everyone seems to be so condescending around here lately. I don't fly in Australia. I don't fly in the UK or Canada. What I refer to as one thing, you may call another. So you'll have to forgive me for being "stupid" after 35 years of flying.

Good Nite.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Commonly called a torque turn

Need to start downwind, best get to about 60 kts ( in most machines) pulling climb power. Ac needs to be in balance, ie pedals together
When happy pull the cylic back until ac starts going close to 60 degrees plus nose up. Yon now have to do nothing, as the ac slows down, vertical fin loses its lift capability. The torque reaction overcomes tail rotor thrust and vertical fin thrust ( dont play with the pedals), ac spins round, nose now down. Gravity acclerates the ac back down to the ground, as ac speeds up the disc flapsback and virtually pulls the ac out of its dive.
Can be done very safely from a starting point of 30 ft and 60 kts. But must must be done starting downwind, so you get translational lift as you come out the other side !
The 206 got through the turn easily, think the pilot was doing a low pass and got the height wrong rather than cock up the turn, looks like the machine had pax in the back, so was quite heavy and hence more difficult
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:23 pm    Post subject: Turn Reply with quote

Hughes500.

Thank you for your explanation.

It is very close to what the CP did in the 206 except that he added right rudder and did not wait for the copter to loose tail fin effectiveness. That is why he called it a hammerhead, and not a torque turn. I know CP did it upwind, and that is why it was a bit scary. He said not to worry. He was one of our best and so I became simply a passenger along for the ride. Shocked

I have enough trouble flying straight and level. Laughing

I agree with you that the pilot in the video misjudged his altitude.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

afterburner wrote:

I fail to understand why everyone seems to be so condescending around here lately


I apologize if my post sounded condescending. That wasn't my intent at all.

Best Regards!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:42 pm    Post subject: Flight Dynamics Reply with quote

Pogue,

I am sure that it was not. Apology not necessary.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could be wrong but wouldn't that manoeuvre with the 206 be pretty illegal in most places? Pretty sure it would be over here as they were very very close to the spectators. Myself personally I would have run a mile!!

Doesn't look to me like they meant to touch the ground at all and seems a little reckless to me!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever you want to call it, it requires a lot of skill and experience and could easily go horribly wrong. Don't go trying it just because you've read about it on a forum and seen some crazy dude doing it on a video. I'm sure that JetRanger pilot had to change his underwear after that little exhibition.

He could have had a dispensation to operate close to the crowds at an airshow, but I'm sure that touchdown wasn't intentional and looking at the stress on the tail boom as it "flexed" on ground contact I don't think I'd like to fly that aircraft after him.

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