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HeliTorque :: View topic - North Sea Ditching 1st April 2009
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HeliTorque Forum Index » Flight Safety

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North Sea Ditching 1st April 2009 Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
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James T Lowe
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The AAIB will (impartially) concentrate on finding the technical cause or causes of this accident. They'll not really be interested in any other politics around that, unless it is relevant.

If it goes ahead, I guess the public inquiry will look into not only the causes here, but the circumstances surrounding it, the cultures of the companies involved, and the North Sea operation as a whole. They may find that some things could be improved, they may not.

Just trying to think of a high profile incident where the technical causes were relatively easily explained, but the culture behind it needed changing - the one that springs to mind was the Herald of Free Enterprise accident. (I've no idea if this was an enquiry or not, but it serves to illustrate my thoughts!) The bilge tanks were full, bow doors were open, shallow harbour - led to the vehicle deck taking on water. Technically, easy to explain. But why was that allowed to happen?

The culture behind that, and procedures were one of no-one cross checking that things had happened, and fail-dangerous scenarios. (i.e. Captain would only be informed if there was a problem with the doors - so when no-one shut them, he didn't know!) The crew were under commercial pressure to turn the vessel around and get back to sea (I seem to remember they had "on-time" incentives) - the pressure came from cut price deals operated by the company, so the ship was full. And, the vessel in question wasn't really designed for the Zebrugge route.
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WhirlyGuy
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just read this on the news.bbc.co.uk web-site

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/7981321.stm

My deepest thoughts go out to the families of those involved in this tragic incident.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A collegue of mine knew the co-pilot Richard Menzies well. It is a tradgedy that lives are lost , but at such a young age with life and career ahead, even worse. May peace be with them all.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We know two pilots who work for Bond. blme taught one of them right the way through to her PPL(H), and the other half-way through to her PPL(H). They are very shaken up as you an imagine! But their parents are even more shaken up than the two girls (who are sisters)!

One of the sisters is the same age as Richard Menzies.

My thoughts go out to all family, friends and colleagues.

Catwoman
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Same here, a collegue of mine knew Richard Menzies. Such a shame.

I don't think this will pass by without a public enquiry, not after another puma just a couple of months ago which may be partially attirbuted to issues with the RAD ALT and TAWS.

Hopefully it won't come to the light that Bond have some 'maintenance' issues going on with the fleet because that could really kill them.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a start to ending some of the wild speculation doing the rounds (albeit not on this site thankfully), just had this forwarded to me.

"Examination of the wreckage indicates that the accident occurred following a catastrophic failure of the main rotor gearbox (MGB). This resulted in the detachment of the main rotor head from the
helicopter and was rapidly followed by main rotor blade strikes on the pylon and tail boom, which became severed from the fuselage. It is apparent that there was also a rupture in the right hand (No2)
engine casing, in the plane of the second stage power turbine. This is currently believed to be a secondary feature. Investigations are continuing in order to understand completely the accident sequence.

The investigation has so far revealed that the MGB had suffered from a major failure within the epicyclic module. This is supported by HUMS data; however, this is not yet fully understood. The examination of the MGB is continuing in conjunction with detailed analysis of the HUMS and other recorded information."

Full initial AAIB report here.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/latest_news/super_puma_accident___1_april_2009___initial_report.cfm


We all stumble when one of us falls

FW
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think that report came as a suprise to a lot of us after the outcome. But this did catch my eye...

Quote:
"radar information showed the helicopter flying inbound towards Aberdeen at 2,000ft, climbing momentarily to 2,200ft, then turning right and descending rapidly"

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:55 pm    Post subject: 3 Guilty Bastards attend Aberdeen Helicopter deaths memorial Reply with quote

Deleted due to inappropriate content.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fendersim wrote:
I don't think that report came as a suprise to a lot of us after the outcome. But this did catch my eye...

Quote:
"radar information showed the helicopter flying inbound towards Aberdeen at 2,000ft, climbing momentarily to 2,200ft, then turning right and descending rapidly"


A rapid ascent might indicate that the engine power got stuck full on - the "throttle wide open" so to speak due to something wrong with the engine management system or something as simple as a broken cable or stuck/broken electrical contact.

If the engine was jammed full power on - in particular if the engine was pushed past its "red line" supplying more power than it or the gearbox was rated to cope with, the massive amount of power could have wrecked the gearbox and caused the catastrophe.

Whatever the cause of the gearbox failing and I am no expert on helicopter design but a good design ought to allow the rotor to freewheel even if there is a catastrophic failure of the drive mechanism.

I mean in the old days, bicycles didn't use to have freewheel mechanisms so if you stopped pedalling the back wheel locked up and maybe you skidded and crashed. Then some bright spark invented the freewheeling drive mechanism so you could freewheel your bike without pedalling - very handy and a good safety mechanism.

Helicopters ought to be able to do the same - the rotor ought to be able to "freewheel" allowing for a more graceful landing if the engine and gearbox fails and locks up.

I can only assume that the best designed and most expensive helicopters CAN "freewheel" even with a jammed gearbox but I don't know. Obviously the Super Puma does not and when the gearbox fails the rotor can't freewheel and it severs itself from the body and the helicopter crashes. Rolling Eyes
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Last edited by PeterDow on Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:33 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ugh. Evil or Very Mad

I'm all for freedom of speech, but I don't think the above post (12:55 UTC) should reside on this thread. WhirlyG's, can I request the thread split please?

As for the sentiment of the post, clearly you feel very strongly about the cause, but I can't help think that you've jumped to a conclusion there. How, for example, can you factor in the fatal S76 crash off Canada last month, engaged in similar activity?

Can I suggest that you wait for all the facts from the formal AAIB report? Accidents are so so rarely the result of ONE thing that's gone wrong - it's very often a long string of coincidences - "the holes in the cheese lined up" - see James Reason.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter Dow

All I can say is that I am incensed by your post, one of my closest friends was the captain of the Super Puma that crashed off Peterhead two weeks ago, this is the first thing that I have seen since that day that has actually upset or angered me, and considering I took a lot of phone calls from the gutter press trying to sell newspapers that does go some way to achieve.

The picture is insulting to the men who died that day, and having had a look at your website the article about this incident and its references to safety coming with a price are particularly innacurate.

Whilst I am all for freedom of speech, and know nothing about your cause, I believe using this incident to try and support your argument is distasteful and insulting.

I can ony hope that one of the mods will choose to get rid of this.

Gary Spender
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter Dow...

What ever your motivations or beliefs what you have put in your post is extremely upsetting and distasteful. One of my best friends was the Captain on the flight and your comments are unhelpful and unwanted.

As you rightly point out in your second post - you know nothing about helicopters. Well in that case don't talk S**t on a helicopter site.

Please keep your political beliefs to your self, I for one am not interested. If you feel I have wronged you in anyway please pm me with contact details and I will be more than happy to talk with you directly.

Moderators - if there is enough cause - please remove the above post, thanks.

SF
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mods,

I'm with Vne, SF and JTL.

Freedom of speech yeah, but a flight safety forum isn't the place for a Political rant, nor a thread full of rubbish bourne out of a clear lack of knowledge. The initial AAIB report has been released, a full report will follow, and if there's a Public Enquiry blame may be aportioned.

PeterDow,
Your websites banner states " Intelligence, Education, Leadership, Justice, Compassion and Democracy". I'm afraid you're showing no helicopter education and too little compassion! In a Democracy you await ALL the facts BEFORE demanding justice. The end result of your rant being that you come across with questionable intelligence and leadership. Not your original aim I would presume Wink

We were 'designed' with two ears and one mouth for a good reason. May I kindly suggest, out of respect for those who died (rather than satisfying your need to attack those you believe culpable), and the professionals who frequent this site and others like it, that you use the two ears for a tad longer before letting your mouth loose.

FW
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm always one to add some balance Cool

Check this link to get a 'feel' for our inflammatory poster Laughing

http://www.aberdeen-music.com/forums/general-discussion/37175-peter-dow.html

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Dow

The maddest of Aberdeen madmen is back, and he's got a new mission:

http://snsb.byethost31.com/lookingforawoman.htm

Who can resist this bit:

"I am not adverse to introducing a bit of polygamy (polygyny) into my life, so if, say, sisters, women friends or bisexual women partners wanted to share me and for us all to live together as one happy family, then I'd be all for that. One woman at a time is enough to keep me happy but I'd also be happy to live with and take on more than one woman at a time, so long as I didn't have to share the women under my roof with any other man."

Other edited highlights:

"Well, itís been truly wonderful having our leading lady, Condi Rice, over here on the European side of the Atlantic and in the news so much. Iíd like to sing my love a wee song to the tune of Bye Bye Baby as I look forward to her next transatlantic visit. Sigh.

Bye bye Condi
(Canít put it off any longer,
I just gotta tell you, anyway)

Bye bye Condi - Condi, goodbye,
Bye bye Condi - donít make me cry.

Youíre the one girl renown Iíd marry,
Girl Iíd marry you now if I were free,
I wish it could be.

I could love you but why begin it?
If there ainít any future in it?

(Sheís Condi and Iím not free, so Ö)

Bye bye Condi - Condi, goodbye,
Bye bye Condi - donít make me cry.

Guess I never will know you better,
Wish I knew you before and better,
Gee, how good you would be for me.

Should have told you that I can linger,
Thereís no wedding ring on my finger.

(Sheís Condi and Iím not free, so Ö)

Bye bye Condi - Condi, goodbye,
Bye bye Condi - donít make me cry.

Will Condi Rice marry Peter Dow? Dream on!
St Valentine's Day Proposal February 14th, 2005:

Will Condi Rice marry Peter Dow?

My dearest Condi,
Iíve been hinting at my love for you for quite a while now on my Scottish National Standard Bearer website and now, after your recent visit to Britain, Iíve been proud to declare my feelings for you in no uncertain terms.

OK itís perhaps a bit soon to propose to you since weíve never actually met but, hey, neither of us are getting any younger (Iím 44) and so I thought Iíd better pop the question. Will you marry me?
To be honest, Iím not too hopeful that youíll say ďyesĒ but in case you want further information, telephone me on"

"Education: Obviously, I am a highly educated person and so a well-educated mature woman or a young woman with the potential to learn would be ideal. A woman reading this and able to send me emails can assume that the chances are that she is smart enough for my requirements "

"Well I am 45 and my main requirement is that my lady be of child-bearing age (aged 16 to 40 is fine), and younger women have time to bear more children. The more children a woman could bear for me, the happier I'll be. "

"When my lady moves in, I'll be expecting to have sex with her with no contraception."

This guy is keeping romance alive!!! Laughing


I so love Google Razz


Last edited by flingingwings on Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree - this is NOT the time or place for this sort of post. I'm with the others above - please remove the posts.

W.
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