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HeliTorque :: View topic - Engine Failure In The Hover
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HeliTorque Forum Index » Flight Dynamics

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WhirlyGirl
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 6:45 pm    Post subject: Engine Failure In The Hover Reply with quote

How common is this? I have practiced it a few times with an instructor on board, but has anybody experienced it or had to make an emergency landing from a hover? During my training I was taught about not hovering too high off the ground just incase the engine quit. I heard about an accident a few months ago where an R22 fell from about 10 feet, but I don't think there's been an AAIB report for it yet.

Proffessional pilots, do you practice the recovery technique very often?

Regards,

WhirlyGirl Cool
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've done hovering autos on every single engine checkride and training session I've ever had, full touchdown autos are another thing, it depends on the company, termination with power for autos mostly, but we used to do 300' 180 degree touchdown autos twice a year. Good thing too because I've had 3 engine failures in singles (1 at a hover). The only autos I do in multis are at altitude to check and adjust rotor rpm, but we do a lot of (OEI) one engine inoperative training, SAS off partial hyd. failure and so on...
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saint wrote:
Good thing too because I've had 3 engine failures in singles (1 at a hover)


In how many hours of flying? How did you react? Did you just get on an carry out the autos without thinking about it, or did it get easier each time it happened? Obviously we practice these a lot too, but I couldn't imagine how it would feel to actaully realise you are having a real engine failure.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a good article in the current issue of Heli-Ops magazine (thank you for my recentist one Neville - a brill publication) on autos and engine off things (Flight Dynamics, page 12) - mainly stating that the odds of an engine failure in a turbine powered heli is once every 79,000 hours but also making the point about practice autos and EOLs being a major cause of aircraft write-offs and injuries etc. hence high insurance premiums.

Well worth a read although the practice would make you ready for the event as it's necessary to know what to do but NOT using an engine chop which could cause failure.
I was shown entering auto a whole new way on just my last lesson, which very much mirrors what the article states where you lower the lever gradually to keep full control of the a/c for simulation. In a real emergency the engine chops away due to it stopping but to practice maintaining control is of great importance and then the 3 way control change becomes an automatic reaction and you can keep safe control of the a/c which gives you more time to assess the situation, get a Mayday call out and land as safely as time permits.

Being a student (about 60 hours) I don't mind being advised by the more experienced - the article reinforced my own thinking but do CAA actions ever follow FAA, do they talk with each other or are they linked?

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Last edited by Flying Foxy on Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We practice engine failures in a hover on a very regular basis in the Navy. Almost every flight. Even though we have dual engine aircraft, we still practice it. The more you practice, the more natural the response will be if it actually happens. Just like the way we practice engine failures in a 70' hover assuming a worst case scenario if we are doing a rescue over water.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never had a failure in the hover, but have had three real ones, and I can assure you that it is quite different from just closing the throttle and autorotating.

I read the article in Heli-Ops, and can see their point, but power-on autos bring their own problems, namely having your head in the cockpit and trying not to get a torque spike (206) when you should be looking out. It's all very well saying that if you have two skills you have what you need, but that's rather like saying you can practice bars of music individually - the whole lot must flow together to be effective. I always teach power-on autos, and do them on a check ride. Sure, there are risks of accidents, but I'd rather have that than have someone dead because they didn't have a chance to practice properly.

Phil
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WhirlyGirl wrote:
saint wrote:
Good thing too because I've had 3 engine failures in singles (1 at a hover)


In how many hours of flying? How did you react? Did you just get on an carry out the autos without thinking about it, or did it get easier each time it happened? Obviously we practice these a lot too, but I couldn't imagine how it would feel to actaully realise you are having a real engine failure.

WhirlyGirl Cool


6100 hours, pretty well once the horn sounded, they all surprised me and I lost a lot of rotor, the last one was in the ocean with a passenger but I got the floats out, and a mayday a fisherman picked us up, the Coast Guard flew over and waved, I was weak kneed each time afterwards...
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can imagine! Having an engine failure over water must be every pilot's worst nightmare!

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:40 am    Post subject: Engine Failure Over Water! Reply with quote

Yes, engine failure over water, this must be every pilots nightmare. I fly an R22 Beta and fly around the west coast of Scotland. Maximum distance continually over water has been about 15 nautical miles. I always wear a life jacket but do sometimes feel uneasy!!! Does anyone know how long you have to get out if you land on water, ie flare, level ,pull collective and at the last minute lateral cyclic to roll over and stop the blades turning. Then how long to make a sharp exit? Does it sink like a stone? Any comments most welcome..nice to be back after being away for many months. Congrats to whirlygirl, you were about to go solo last time we spoke, doesn't time fly!!
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you haven't done the dunker training, you need to be prepared to stay under water for 7 seconds, to give the blades time to stop (I have a video that proves this). Secondly, before you go under, have one hand on the seat belt release and on on the exit handle, so you know where it is when you are upside down. DO NOT INFLATE THE LIFEJACKET UNTIL YOU ARE OUT!!!!! Otherwise you will never get out.

Personally, I think you're nuts going over water in any single-engined helicopter Shocked

Phil
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getting back to the original question about EFITH, Frank Robinson claims that he has never lost a helicopter through hovering too high (and having an engine failure) but there have been countless instances of rolling them up by hovering too low and catching a skid. Keep your hover height above 3 feet.

Sure, learn how to do them, and in B206 or UH-1H the rotor inertia makes them a no-brainer. But in the R22, practice engine failures in the hover are like practice bleeding.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:27 am    Post subject: Mad flying over water in a single engine helicopter? Reply with quote

Paco thanks for your comments...Mad? .....well maybe! However if you consider the time you fly, there is a high % when you are over unsuitable ground for an autorotative landing. Is this mad also in a single engine heli? Remember our fixed wing cousins do this all the time. At least with the water you are in an almost similar landing every time, ie the water! I would be interested for any comments.

Thanks[/quote]
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your point is taken, but you would likely have much more chance of walking away from a landing in unsuitable ground than landing in water (even more so in a 206), especially when a high proportion of survivors die within a few minutes of being rescued, even in a goon suit.

Just because someone does it all the time, doesn't mean it's right! A fixed wing has a better glide ratio and can accept a little exposure.

Still not my cup of tea! Smile

Phil
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:45 pm    Post subject: Flying Over Water Reply with quote

Paco thanks for the reply, I take on board your comments and the waters off the west coast of Scotland are hardly tropical!!! Just have to save up for a machine with fixed or pop-out floats. However, I have also heard that all these do is make sure your heli doesn't sink! Apparantly almost all the time they roll over, suppose its better to be in a machine which is afloat rolled over or not!

Thanks again, now where did I leave those water wings!!!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I take it the regs over there must be different to the ones I'm used to in regards to single engine land aircraft operating over water. In Canada the regs state that you must not be further than gliding distance from shore when operating a single engine land aircraft. Except when authorised by the minister to do so, ie. water bucketing, etc.

We used to practise hover autos every year during recurrent training. When operating out of confined areas, if you ding the t/r, you will need to know how to do a hovering auto if you hope to get it down in something that resembles one piece. Wink
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