Welcome Guest
HeliTorque
  
User Control Panel

Security Code: : Security Code
Type Security Code Here: :
 
Register Here
Lost Password?

Online Stats:
Visitors: 22
Members: 0
Total: 22

Membership:
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Registering: 0
Members: 6662
Latest: chrisw

Most Ever Online
Visitors: 447
Members: 10
Total: 457


HeliTorque :: View topic - How do you teach....
Forum FAQ
Forum FAQ
Search
Search
Memberlist
Memberlist
Usergroups
Usergroups
Profile
Profile
Contact Manager
Contact Manager
Log in
Log in
Log in to check your private messages
Log in to check your private messages
HeliTorque Forum Index » Instructor Forum

Post new topic   Reply to topic All times are GMT
How do you teach.... Goto page 1, 2  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
rotrhd1
Shy 'Torquer
Shy 'Torquer


Offline
Joined: Jul 30, 2005
Posts: 9
Location: Vancouver Island


canada.gif

PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:35 pm    Post subject: How do you teach.... Reply with quote

Hi All.

I'm noticing a lot of these forums are still quite slow. So, I thought I'd at least make an effort to spark things up in the instructor segment anyway.

Seeing as it's once again the start of the training / recurrent training season I thougth I'd ask the members here how they go about presenting certain flight exercises to their students. I'd also like to hear from the students their experiences in these lessons and whether they thought the way they were presented was effective for them as learners.

The ones I'm most interested in are:

1. Engine Failures in the Hover/Hover Taxi (also known as "hover chops" or "hovering autos" to our American friends.

2. Stuck Pedal emergencies in both the hover and forward flight.

3. Transitions to forward flight.

4. Transitions to the hover.

5. Off level landings or take-offs (sloping ground)

Also, do people demonstrate Vortex Ring State and when and how do they go about performing the demonstration.

I'm looking forward to hearing the responses. Let's get something going here...

RH1
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
blme
H Addict
H Addict


Offline
Joined: Jul 22, 2004
Posts: 262
Location: Radway, Warwickshire


uk.gif

PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 9:18 pm    Post subject: Stuck Pedal Reply with quote

Hi

Can you explain the lesson about pedal stuck?

Is this the same as tail rotor failure?

blme
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Skype Name
Ascend_Charlie
H Addict
H Addict


Offline
Joined: Aug 23, 2005
Posts: 266
Location: On a course.... golf course


australia.gif

PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Answers to all the questions will fill a couple of manuals and blow your bandwidth to bits.

A simple answer to Blimey's query on tail rotor problems: there isn't a simple answer. Stuck pedal is just that: you are solo in a machine with duals fitted, and something drops onto the other side floor and jams the pedals. You can't reach it, and it is too strong to break with pedal pressure.

It might be in the cruise, or in the climb, or descent. The response is to determine which way the nose is pointing. Left is lucky, right is rotten. Left allows you to make a shallow approach to a run-on and perhaps even reach a hover. Right is an auto at worst or a faster run-on at best.

Tail jams can occur in the mixing unit (like a 76) and some function can still be available with cross-coupled collective; or it can be further aft.

Tail fails can be a control rod failure, or a cable failure, or a drive shaft failure (imagine it thrashing around in your tail boom) or total loss of the tail rotor and/or gearbox - big yaw and cg change.

Too many options to go into here - book a session with your instructor, even if it is just yapping on the ground.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
R22-Adam
High Flying 'Torquer
High Flying 'Torquer


Offline
Joined: Apr 02, 2005
Posts: 209
Location: Dartford


blank.gif

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To answer one of them, we did VRS from 3000 ft, but to be honest, the instructor looked quite nervous about doing it at all, and he's got over 10,000 hours of flying logged.

He also didn't let it get far enough developed, from what I've been told....just a small shudder in the machine, and then recover.

As for stuck pedal.....never been taught that one at all!!!

A.
_________________
Adam Bailey
PPL(H) - Based Headcorn/Denham/Manston/Panshanger/Shoreham/Brands Hatch

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Aser
Starting to 'Torque
Starting to 'Torque


Offline
Joined: Jul 31, 2005
Posts: 12
Location: Spain


spain.gif

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As for stuck pedal.....never been taught that one at all!!!

Are you kidding? Confused
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Intentionally Blank
H Addict
H Addict


Offline
Joined: May 01, 2005
Posts: 331


uk.gif

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
As for stuck pedal.....never been taught that one at all!!!

Are you kidding?


It's not in the PPL(H) syllabus so...

I WAS however shown it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
WhirlyGirl
Administrator
Administrator


Offline
Joined: Jul 20, 2004
Posts: 3702
Location: Birmingham, UK


uk.gif

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's right, it is not actually in the syllabus - I have read about it in a couple of helicopter technical books, but never actually gone through the procedure. I have however covered sloping ground, tail rotor failiure in the hover, engine failure in the hover, and vortex ring, which was demonstrated to me first at around 3,000 feet, and then I was shown the recovery procedure (in an R22 and R44). One thing I noticed about that was when you feel the heli start to vibrate, then you get a sense of flying backwards, and then you see the strings actually flop down as if there's no wind anymore, you know something's not quite right!

I would like to go over all procedures again however, including stuck pedal which I've never really covered.

WhirlyGirl Cool
_________________
CPL(H) / FI(H) - Cabri G2, R22, S300, R44, B206
Flight Examiner (H), Ground Examiner (H)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Skype Name
rotrhd1
Shy 'Torquer
Shy 'Torquer


Offline
Joined: Jul 30, 2005
Posts: 9
Location: Vancouver Island


canada.gif

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Ascend_Charlie"]Answers to all the questions will fill a couple of manuals and blow your bandwidth to bits.
quote]

That's sort of what I was going for...

It's something that I've come across elsewhere also. I know stuck pedals are not all that common in today's machines, with their control deep within the bowls of the machine, but just because it's not in the training syllabus does not mean it shouldn't be covered.

Once grasped it brings an better understanding about how the torque/power/countertorque ballet all works, which could help in any number of scenarios.

Any others care to add...

RH1
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bierbuikje
'Torquing Regularly
'Torquing Regularly


Offline
Joined: May 28, 2005
Posts: 55



PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It does not acutely state stuck pedal in the JAA PPL sylabus but it does cover emergency procedures, I would say it should be covered here. Plus don't forget a flight school can expand on the basic syllabus, just go to a flight school that teaches in depth.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Aser
Starting to 'Torque
Starting to 'Torque


Offline
Joined: Jul 31, 2005
Posts: 12
Location: Spain


spain.gif

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It's not in the PPL(H) syllabus so...

I WAS however shown it.

I can't believe it...
Glad to see some schools are proffesionals.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
blme
H Addict
H Addict


Offline
Joined: Jul 22, 2004
Posts: 262
Location: Radway, Warwickshire


uk.gif

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:57 pm    Post subject: Emergencies Reply with quote

Hi

Just because certain exercises are not commonly shown to students does not constitute unprofessionalism.

Govenor failures are a case in point. The Maestro of light helicopters Frank Robinson has said to teach governor off procedures is unwise because it can lead to confussion - after all they are reliable.

It is covered in the syllabus but not overly in depth. If a student wishes to go further with their flying training then more extreme emergencies can be examined. Commercial students would be expexted to understand the more complex situations.

I would be willing to demonstrate any exercise in a two bladed heli if I thought it was of benefit to the recipient.

blme
_________________
Flying for 34 years
Fixed wing 20 years single and multi engine
Helicopters 14 years both turbine and piston
CPL H
Instructor 10 years
FE,TRE,
Ground Examiner
Night Instructor
Love it all
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Skype Name
Aser
Starting to 'Torque
Starting to 'Torque


Offline
Joined: Jul 31, 2005
Posts: 12
Location: Spain


spain.gif

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well , the ppls are flying the same kind of flying machine "helicopters" that a cpl fly, so I can't understand how can anyone send to the sky a helicopter pilot underprepared for emergencies that could happen.

Quote:
Govenor failures are a case in point. The Maestro of light helicopters Frank Robinson has said to teach governor off procedures is unwise because it can lead to confussion - after all they are reliable.

Frank Robinson is just another mortal (very rich).
A lot of things lead to confusion in helicopter emergencies , but with training there is no problem.
The turbine engines are very reliable , but "shit happens" and we need to be ready, ppl or cpl.


Quote:
If a student wishes to go further with their flying training then more extreme emergencies can be examined.

The student hasn't got the ability to decide what is worth knowing, it's school responsability.

My point is that a ppl has the right to carry a passenger and that requires at least to be shown every kind of emergency


Just my thoughts Wink

Quote:
Just because certain exercises are not commonly shown to students does not constitute unprofessionalism.

I agree, but I couldn't sleep well if I was the instructor.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
blme
H Addict
H Addict


Offline
Joined: Jul 22, 2004
Posts: 262
Location: Radway, Warwickshire


uk.gif

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Aser

At what point did you solo a helicopter?
Could you handle the machine fully at that point?

I suggest that these emergencies can be covered - but at a time during
the later stages of training.

As a matter of interest when did you do all this emergency training.

I think all this training is valuable but we have to keep a sense of proportion.

blme
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Skype Name
rotrhd1
Shy 'Torquer
Shy 'Torquer


Offline
Joined: Jul 30, 2005
Posts: 9
Location: Vancouver Island


canada.gif

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, a lively discussion already! Very Happy

I agree with Aser. I think all emergencies should be taught to the point where the pilot can control the aircraft to the ground and be fairly certain they'll survive.

I also agree with Blme. (is that what I think it means?) They do have to be introduced at an appropriate time during the training, but at least before they walk away with a licence, and some before solo obviously.

Some of the PPL guys here get there own machine and then go out and do some pretty interesting stuff, without much guidance or supervision. Most times, they need more training than a CPL guy/gal.

I wasn't aware of the governor thing with Robinson. I have students fly with the gov off during the emergency training sessions and there's never seemed to be any confusion about it. I've also had a gov fail on me in an R44, so it does happen.

I'm glad to hear most have had the VRS demonstrated, and at a safe altitude. When in the training regime did it get shown and how was the recovery explained? How are the ways one could be exposed to VRS in real world situations?

Anyone else on the stuck pedal procedures? Rolling Eyes

And, how is the engine failure in the hover lesson given?

Regards,

RH1
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
raffski
High Flying 'Torquer
High Flying 'Torquer


Offline
Joined: May 26, 2005
Posts: 125
Location: UK


ireland.gif

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've also had a governer fail in the 22. Was lifting from a tight spot, lots of other machines nearby so didn't really realise what was going on initially. The most obvious clue was the engine noise was pretty different when I raised collective to lift. When I twigged it, used throttle to make sure the RPM didn't go too high, got out of the tight spot and landed where there was plenty of room. Did a couple of experimental lifts and lands to confirm the problem, then shut it down. Instructor - your machine. Luckily I had had my LPC a couple of days previously and in preparation for that my instructor had covered circuits without the governor.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    HeliTorque Forum Index » Instructor Forum All times are GMT

 
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Sponsors


Billund Air Center

Visit HeliTorque!