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HeliTorque :: View topic - R44 or R22?
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HeliTorque Forum Index » Student Pilots & Hour Builders

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R44 or R22?
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JeffHall
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:46 am    Post subject: R44 or R22? Reply with quote

I'm now 10.5hrs into my PPL and feel like I'm doing OK.
S/L Flying, Climbing, Decending, Turns, Hovering and now Take-off's & Landings - Things are feeling better all the time (And a damn sight more co-ordinated!)

My instructor after telling me I was doing quite well, asked me if I was aiming for an R44 rating when I qualify - My response was YES because my plan is to fly my girlfriend and her little un at some time in the future.

He then asked if I'd consider finishing my PPL on the R44 (& presumably doing an element of the PPL on it as well) because they were trying to make a business case for buying a used Raven I.

Given the recent crash of G-OSSI, Multiflight no longer have a R44 for SFH, so sensing the need I believe they're looking at getting one and I guess it makes sense to see if people would want to Learn/SFH it etc.

My question to all you nice people on Helitorque is would you:

A: Finish the PPL with the R22 and then Type Rating the R44
B: Finish the PPL with the R44 and then Type Rating the R22
C: Finish the PPL with the R44 and not bother with the R22

I can see the cost benefit to option A, but would the costs be that different and would the benefits of flying the R44 outweigh the cost?

Its all hypothetical at the minute but I'm pretty sure an R44 of some sort will be on the fleet at some time so the question still stands.

Your opinions please...

Jeff Hall
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James T Lowe
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jeff,

I completed my PPL(H) on R22s, as EMH didn't have an R44 on fleet at the time. However, once one arrived, i jumped at the chance of a type rating.

If you've the cash, why not? The R44 is terrific fun; a joy to fly!

However, if cost is more of an issue, then I'd probably stick to the R22, and get the type rating later - it's only a few hours to do.

If you do finish on the R44, then you could get the type rating to the R22 - but again, if you've the cash, I don't think I'd bother. (As it happens, I'm out of currency on the R22 just now - that lapsed in February!)

In terms of "user interface", there's not a lot of difference between the two machines - "they" do say if you can fly an R22 you can fly anything*. The R44 is heavier than the R22, so I reckon is a bit more forgiving, and more stable - i.e. a more comfortable ride. It's quicker too...

J.

*(Which on one hand, is a slightly odd statement to make, as you're learning to fly a helicopter - the principles are pretty much the same no matter which machine! Stick. Lever. Pedals... etc. Wink )


Last edited by James T Lowe on Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PilotWolf
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought all the ppl basic training had to be carried out on one type under CAA/JAA?

W.
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James T Lowe
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, I didn't think so.

Having checked LASORS, I think we're both sort of right.

Section C2 is relevant here.

Quote:
Note: the training requirements specified in (a) and (b)
above must all be completed in one type of helicopter
as used on the PPL(H) Skill Test.


And a and b above are:

Quote:

a. 25 hours* Dual Instruction on Helicopters, must include (i);
i. 5 hours Instrument dual instruction time

b. 10 hours Supervised solo flight time on Helicopters, must include (i);
i. 5 hours Solo cross-country flight time, must include (ii);
ii. One cross-country flight of at least 185km (100nm) as per JAR-FCL 2.125 (b)


So 35 of the 45 hours required have to be completed on the type used on the skill test.
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HeliCraig
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would have thought the CAA would have been a little forgiving about that, given the similarities... then again Rolling Eyes

JTL: Where is the Stiuck ?? Not seen one before! Laughing

(You can't beat being a pompous arse when someone else makes a typo... feel free to point mine out!).
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasn't sure but thought I d read somewhere something about it - guess that was it then JTL!

CAA forgiving? Pigs and flight come to mind HC! Smile

W.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trust you to notice, Craig... Embarassed

(Still getting used to new laptop keyboard - catching too many keys at once. That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it!)
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gusmagoo
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Option A is my chosen route, due to cost, although it could be expected to take a bit longer to get licenced in the 22 as it is less forgiving than the 44, and therefor perceived (by some) as being slightly harder to fly.
Personally i love flying the 22 for its sharp responses and challenging characteristics.(50 hrs plus, almost there!) My eventual transition to the 44 and beyond will hopefully therefor be a piece o cake!
(sorry in advance for any typo or spelling errors Craig!) Wink
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JeffHall
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:52 pm    Post subject: Decision made - R44 it is Reply with quote

Well I made my choice...

I've swapped to the R44 for the remainder of my PPL Very Happy

Whilst the raw financials in no way stack up, after having done 3.5hrs I can honestly say its a much nicer machine.

115kts, 1500 ft/min climb if I want, what more could I ask for?

Oh by the way for now its an R44 Clipper II G-RWEW, Hydraulic - so super smooth, Fuel Injected so no carb heat, and all the bells & whistles inc. Bose ANR headsets and to top it off... Less than 75hrs old!

My school is also in negotiation with someone to leaseback a Raven I which will ultimately work out cheaper and is hopefully what I'll do most of my remaining 35+ hrs on to save a little cash.

The reason for my extravagance is largely based on the fact more hrs on type experience is without value - I could do 45+ hrs R22 and then the type rating but not be confident on the R44, this way the hrs I gain on the R44 will all be beneficial. An added bonus is we all know the R44 has much more inertia and could be said to be a safer machine.

Whilst the R22 rating would be useful to cheaply(ish) build hrs to gain a CPL/ATPL with my eyesight not being up to a class 1 medical std I'm likely to be forever stuck at PPL-H so I might as well make the most of it!

Jeff Hall
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Decision made - R44 it is Reply with quote

JeffHall wrote:
Whilst the raw financials in no way stack up, after having done 3.5hrs I can honestly say its a much nicer machine.

115kts, 1500 ft/min climb if I want, what more could I ask for?

Oh by the way for now its an R44 Clipper II G-RWEW, Hydraulic - so super smooth, Fuel Injected so no carb heat, and all the bells & whistles inc. Bose ANR headsets and to top it off... Less than 75hrs old!


Told you! Cool Wink Very Happy
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SwissCheese
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:56 am    Post subject: R44 or R22 Reply with quote

I just made the same decision, albeit earlier in my training, and after some helpful advice from you all on here.

I spent 45 minutes last week with the CFI on their R22, then the same again on their R44.

In my view, the extra cost of initial training on the R44 is acceptable given the different flying experience that it provides.

Good luck,
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Bomb_Doctor
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I ultimately wanted to fly turbine..... nothing wrong with the 22/44 but I just liked the tubine noise and power......

Most companies will only SFH you a 206 or 120 when you have at least 25hrs on type.... so if you work out the maths, 45hrs on the 44 then 25hrs dual on the 206 works out more expensive than learning on the 206 to start with!

So........I'm learning on the 206. I had already in my mind allocated/spent 23k for the PPL(H) and so allocating another 3k (difference between the 44 and 206) in my mind was easy...
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BladeRunner
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another reason to fly 44 within a ppl for anyone interested. Most outfits will only sfh you a 44 with a minimum of 15 hours on type (including conversion and skills test). So even though a rating is 5.7 hours minimum, you still end up paying for another 9.3 dual anyway.
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zlydzidek
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

What is avarage time for PPL on 22 and 44? Is it much longer on 22 then on 44?

Thx Smile
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slim40
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have any figures, but would guess that the average time needed on a 44 would be considerably less than the 22 as it's far less 'twitchy'.
It's an expensive way to learn though!

Si
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