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HeliTorque Forum Index » Torque, Chat, and Chill!

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chopperjockey
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to look at the other point of view....
Although I agree the attack was disgraceful, I note there appears to be no report of any actual damage to the aircraft. Could it be that there was indeed no damage and the decision to ground the aircraft was the pilot's.
If the decision to not take the baby to hospital was the pilot's, and there was no damage to the aircraft,did the pilot over react and should we be blaming the scrotes for the pilot's over cautous decision ?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No scroates , no need to ground aircraft. If the incident had not taken place the aircraft would not have been removed from service. There is no such thing in my book as an over cautious pilot just a "live" pilot and crew. If some drunken clown was swinging off my tail boom I would be going nowhere until checked as you dont know what else the clown has done eg beer in intake, bent tail rotor, etc. If willing to put a hand to the throat of an air ambulance pilot I dont think much is beyond this idiot.
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chopperjockey
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pilots swing off tail booms every time the ground handling wheels go down. Have you ever ground handled a 300? or an Enstrom or a 500 or a 206 or an R44 etc?
You have to grab hold the tail fin and use it as a lever.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ORC wrote:
No scroates , no need to ground aircraft. If the incident had not taken place the aircraft would not have been removed from service. There is no such thing in my book as an over cautious pilot just a "live" pilot and crew. If some drunken clown was swinging off my tail boom I would be going nowhere until checked as you dont know what else the clown has done eg beer in intake, bent tail rotor, etc. If willing to put a hand to the throat of an air ambulance pilot I dont think much is beyond this idiot.


I tend to agree! If the pilot thought "what the heck..." and then something happened, with him, paramedic and patient on board..... he'd be public enemy No. 1.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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I tend to agree! If the pilot thought "what the heck..." and then something happened, with him, paramedic and patient on board..... he'd be public enemy No. 1.


And on the other side of the argument...

If the pilot grounded the aircraft, even though there were NO signs of any damage and the patient died because it took too long to get to hospital?
Is an over cautious pilot made of the right stuff? would a calculated risk in the interests of saving life have been more appropriate ?
Perhaps a vigilant walk around and a tug on the tail fin would have been able to spot any damage. A life may have been at stake here.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Latest update, not the best but still an update:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2994391/Mother-calls-for-jail-sentence-for-999-chopper-attack-yobs.html

Maybe the pilot would have made a totally different judgement call if the injuries were more life threatening.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CJ

Whilst I can't speak for all of the types you mention I have never manouvered (as in applied the down force to) a helicopter by its fin ever.

I am sure it does no harm to some but I bet it does to others.

I am sure that the down force applied by one clown is nowhere near the force applied by the horizontal stabs, but in flight is totally different to in contact with the ground. There will be a resistance applied by the ground which is not present in flight.

There are those morons who think that low (outside all limits) rpm in flight is acceptable but the forces on the head are not the same as when not in flight, just like flying overweight cannot be justified even if it can be done. You cannot teach some idiots particularly those who are likely to dangle off helicopters and assault air ambulance pilots.

The guy who was assaulted I have only met twice, he has been doing his job for along time and I doubt would have grounded the machine on a whim. There are clearly some people flying air ambulances who are total numptys but he is not one of them.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Maybe the pilot would have made a totally different judgement call if the injuries were more life threatening.


I doubt it. If he is concerned as to the airworthiness of a helicopter then those concerns still exist notwithstanding the condition of a casualty. Bear in mind for the air ambulance to be called at all then injuries/condition are likely to be serious in the first place. But he can no more justify an accident while carrying a seriously injured patient than he can in any other circumstances.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DBChopper wrote:
Quote:
Maybe the pilot would have made a totally different judgement call if the injuries were more life threatening.


I doubt it. If he is concerned as to the airworthiness of a helicopter then those concerns still exist notwithstanding the condition of a casualty. Bear in mind for the air ambulance to be called at all then injuries/condition are likely to be serious in the first place. But he can no more justify an accident while carrying a seriously injured patient than he can in any other circumstances.


Couldn't have said it better myself DB. Root cause of the grounded heli was two fecking idiots...... simple.

Stake them out and release the hounds!
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Stake them out and release the hounds!


Did somebody call...? Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There are clearly some people flying air ambulances who are total numptys but he is not one of them.


That's a bit harsh - Clearly? Any evidence for this statement, veeany?

=============================================

Quote:
Maybe the pilot would have made a totally different judgement call if the injuries were more life threatening.


No no no. The go/nogo decision should have absolutely nothing to do with the condition of the casualty. (In crappy weather it becomes a continuous keep going/turn back decision.) I don't give a monkey's about the state of the casualty. Call it callous if you want, but it simplifies the decision making process.
Yes it's good to do a good job and save a life or two, and that's a very satsifying part of the job...but it is just a job. I'm employed to operate the aircraft as tasked by the customer - safely and within the rules (some of which (weather) are relaxed for HEMS jobs.)

As for the airworthiness of the aircraft - "If in doubt there is no doubt"

Numptycopter Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe many air ambulance/EMS units do not allow the pilot any casualty or incident information (other than location and any potential dangers) to avoid any 'emotional input' on the pilots go or no go decisions?

I certainly recall (some) dispatchers when I was a paramedic using such phrases as "...but it's a child" to persuade land crews to take a job after their shift end, to maximise the available resources.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DBChopper wrote:
Quote:
Stake them out and release the hounds!


Did somebody call...? Wink


Smithers...???
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boecopter

Yes I have the evidence (its public) but i am not getting into a discussion on a public forum about it, its their employers business to know this stuff , not mine to bring it to their attention, I am sure some of us can come up with at least one (probably the same one), there was a known logbook faker (who was also not too great a handler) who is in one now.

Few and far between thankfully.

Harsh I don't think so just honest, but don't get me wrong there are a great number of skilled honest pilots in that role, out there and to them I take my hat off (the ones I know personally are very good pilots, to which I can attest having flown with them).

There are undesirables in all professions, Air ambulance pilots included.

GS
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chopperjockey wrote:
would a calculated risk in the interests of saving life have been more appropriate ?
Perhaps a vigilant walk around and a tug on the tail fin would have been able to spot any damage. A life may have been at stake here.

How can a calculated risk be taken when a pilot is not an engineer? If you thought somebody had taken a swing off your helicopter would you be happy for me to tell you it's fine and go fly? I'm not an engineer, by the way Wink

As has already been stated, you have to take a utilitarian approach - can the risk to the lives of yourself, the crew, and the casualty be justified when:
1. The casualty may die anyway; or
2. The casualty may have survived anyway even if you turn the job down

Risk takers are not readily received in SAR, and I am certain they are not in EMS.
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