Just redone the spreadsheet for the first time in 4 years with
Updated CAA fees.
Accommodation factored in during CPL Gnd School and Exams
The costs that not all schools charge and the ones that do often dont tell you about until you get your first invoice (despite having paid some money upfront) like
Landing fees at £10 per sortie (assuming 1 hr sorties)
Circuit fees during PPL training of £10 per hour
Fuel Surcharge of £2.50 per hour (which I think is low based on current stories)
I have not factored in the latest training rates but I know there are schools charging more than I have allowed for.
Joined: Aug 07, 2010 Posts: 19 Location: Leeds, West Yorkshire
Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:19 am Post subject:
That does sound very lucky!! like everyone keeps saying its all about luck and networking and being in the right place at the right time etc.
That sounds like a perfect outcome really, being recommended by someone to someone else and then taking it from there!! that would be the ideal situation for everyone i suppose!
I dont mind working myself up to 1000 hours or so even more if needed, but its all about catching that break isnt it. Finding that illusive first contract that will get you flying full time and started off in the right direction!!
I wish i had a mortgage to add my training to, unfortunately im stuck at saving monthly for it! I dont mind getting into a bit of debt but it seems like a risky thing to do when there are few jobs around at this point in time. (although by the time i get to FI level i think i will be about 35 the way things are going!!! im 24 at the moment)
One thing i have been meaning to ask is.....does anyone know of a legal way to register to claim the VAT back on training costs....totalled up its around £10k of the total £60k bill (worked out using the griffin spreadsheet and the multijet pricelist) - £200 pph training when booked in 45 hour blocks and £125 self fly - states £145 @ 10 hours so i think it could be haggled down a bit! haha)
The Mrs neary fainted last nite when i saidi had underestimated (because of the 250 hour req for FI) and said its gona take bloody years!! lol, i dont think she is far wrong unfortunately cant think of a way to reduce the cost any further. _________________ Thanks for your help, Tony
Joined: Aug 07, 2010 Posts: 19 Location: Leeds, West Yorkshire
Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:45 am Post subject:
so maybe helijet's 145 pound self fly for 10 blocks is already pretty good then? What do you mea about the fun with logging hours starts? Souns ominous!!
If you are the writer and creator of the griffin sheet could you enable changes or add a vat amount cell please to allow for future changes ...just an idea. _________________ Thanks for your help, Tony
The sheet already has a vat cell on each line, and the one I published this morning is not protected in any way.
You will find all kinds of ways people log flight time and maintenance hours, some are more unscrupulous than others. At the end of the day the opeators need to make the most money for a given flight hour, but there are some less than straight practices with regards to logging of flight time. There are also some which are straight that look otherwise, it can be difficult to see the wood for the trees when you first start.
Tony, there are a few ways you can help lower the costs, none are guaranteed though because you're not the only person asking and the options are finite. This is not a complete list, I'm getting old and my memory fades.
1) If you decide to go for it. Class 1 Medical first.
2) Look in a Pooleys type catalogue and see what books and stuff you'll need. Then try ebay
3) I'm not a fan of prepackaged future pilot kits the bags dont fit well under Robbo seats (R22) and some of the stuff can be obtained cheaper elsewhere, and/or has an expiry date. As a student any old already owned rusksack will do as a flight bag- I still use one like that now. Find/get the books you need, start reading.
4) You need a pass in your ppl air law exam before you can fly solo, so start wth this book, then work through the others. I 'd leave navigation until its nearer in the flying course, but thats just me.
5) As nav approaches get some pens, a ruler with the required scale on it, a protractor, and a map. The maps are updated, legally you must fly with a current one, so little point in getting a map until you need it. If you want to practice drawing lines on it and planning routes, ask on a forum like this for an out of date one, we've all got them, and use that.
6) Flight computers. CRP1 if you're only getting a PPL. If there is even a 1% risk of going CPL go straight for a CRP5, and save buying two of them.
7) Once you have a ppl, start approaching local schools and try to get on their list of hours builders who'd like to help with any positioning trips. This might involve taking an aircraft to a maintenance place and getting a train back, or waiting all day and then flying back, but the flying can normally be negotiated down to an 'at cost' price.
try to find other hour builders. look to then fly together. Only one of you can 'log' the hours but you'll get twice the actual exposure. Two of you are likely to travel further together (added moral support, and if you can both only afford an hour, individually thats 30mins each way, together you could each fly for an hour in one direction). Visit airfields, meet people, make those all important contacts.
9) You probably won't negotiate much off prices per hour. So look at the other options : some free groundschool (many places dont pay their instructors for this because its not flying time ) free/cheaper ppl exams are but two suggestions. Dont expect lots but every little helps.Try to avoid paying huge sums of money up front. Schools do go bust and you'll lose your money. Never pay anything upfront that you cannot afford to lose.
10) Use your hours building to improve. Do the standard take your friends and family flying but dont forget to also fly with an instructor say once a month so that emergency drills and more complicated navigation (London Helilanes say) etc etc are maintained to a good standard - save yourself getting rusty and then having to pay for more training at a later date. Your CPL test is basically a PPL test flown with the CAA examiner to a higher degree of accuracy.
11)Be focused from Day 1. The commercial study is a right royal pain in the arse, but take it seriously. At £66 quid per exam failing them soon gets very expensive.
12) VAT. In itself a whole new thread. Yes you can legally register and reclaim the VAT on your training costs, but the flying training + VAT relationship has been horribly abused by some, and hence HMR+C can be very wary and require differing degrees of proof. Use an accountant if you're not sure. In a nutshell you'll have to convince HMR+C that you are sincere. You'll need to ultimately charge VAT yourself in order to reclaim it. Keep every receipt and every letter relating to your ambition to become a pilot. Keep them properly filed. The age old scam was to pretend you wanted to be a CPL. Get your ppl, reclaiming the vat, stop, then disappear. Dont assume getting VAT registered will be easy because of this. Too lengthy to type the process, but we can discuss it. Assuming you get registered and start reclaiming VAT against your training costs - KEEP every penny you reclaim and resist the urge to spend it. Once you are qualified HMR+C will want to see that you are now charging VAT for your services (and handing it on to them), you'll need: more than one employer to be self employed, well kept records of your invoices and costs you've incurred. Expect to be inspected by the VAT people after the first 12 months, and possibly annually there after. If they aren't satisfied you're delivering your half of the 'deal', expect them to ask for every penny of VAT reclaimed to be handed back to them (hence keep the cash until you are trading and HMR+C are satisfied). HMR+C aren't stupid so ignore any suggestions from others that you attempt to defraud them! As example: by writing fake letters to yourself (this was suggested to me by a training school a couple of months back whom thought I was a potential student!). I found HMR+C to be one step ahead of me at all stages, fair, and very thorough. Their powers are huge- take the piss at your peril. _________________ W.Y.S.I.W.Y.G.
Joined: Aug 07, 2010 Posts: 19 Location: Leeds, West Yorkshire
Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:51 pm Post subject:
Sorry i havent been on for a couple of days. thought i would give it time incase anyone else wanted to post anything.
Thank you for all the replies, it certainly is something to think about. I have decided to go ahead with the saving and start the weight loss (im not a beast but do need to lose some!!! lol)..
flingingwings, i will definately give you a ring at some point soon, but i work 6 days a week about 60 hours and the day off is spent doing what the mrs wants so i dont get a lot of time to myself to do nothing. but the offer is very much appreciated and i will certainly ring you if thats ok.
The only other thing i can think of offhand is, what sort of things would i fail the medical for? as far as i know i am healthy, just not very fit! im overweight and have asthma. I cant think of anything else thats wrong with me really!! eye sight is good and hearing is fine! would anything else be a problem?
Any other pearls of wisdom?? Oh and flingingwings (im sorry i cant remember your name?? lol) ... thanks for the huge list of things to think about that you posted in you last post, a few bits that i wud love to discuss with you later on, the flight computer ??? the books and things, dont know where to start! im sure other stuff too but oh well! lol. Cant even get in a helicopter until ive lost weight and saved up so its gona be at least a year _________________ Thanks for your help, Tony
Joined: Aug 07, 2010 Posts: 19 Location: Leeds, West Yorkshire
Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:19 pm Post subject:
oh and im looking for pooleys flight catalogue but gotta admit im not sure what im looking for. can you send me a link or somethin with the book titles in and i will buy the first one off ebay, the air law one.
sorry im a pain! _________________ Thanks for your help, Tony
...It may not be totally current, being circa 2004. If any current FI's on here confirm it will be of use happy to post it to you (send me an address via PM). Consider it the first, and very probably only, freebie to start you off.
If nothing else, a very good cure for insomnia....
Joined: Aug 07, 2010 Posts: 19 Location: Leeds, West Yorkshire
Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:28 am Post subject:
thanks for the clarification. Just a quick note as i have to go to work but...
i kept meaning to ask and forgetting,
what is the difference with JAA / JAR / etc.
My goal is to be able to go wherever i want, including europe but probably never america. Which should i be looking at ??
Some books say JAA and some say JAR and i dont want to end up studying the wrong thing and find out down the line its been a royal waste of time and money! lol.
JAA = Joint Aviation Authorities
JAR = Joint Aviation Requirements (not regulations as some would have you believe)
The JAA was a collective of national authorities around europe, it has been superseded by EASA.
The JARs are the requirements we work to when training for licences issued by JAA members (not for national licences, which at the moment is not an issue in the uk).
You want training for a JAA licence.
If you go to the USA you would be training for an FAA licence (usually), although it is possible to train at some schools over there for a JAA Licence.
The JAA effectively no longer exsits, but the paperwork is still there. All things JAA will be replaced in the next few years by all things EASA.
There will be little point in delaying training until the EASA FCLs are cast in stone, crack on in the uk or abroad for a JAA PPL(H). _________________ Gary
Joined: Aug 07, 2010 Posts: 19 Location: Leeds, West Yorkshire
Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:09 pm Post subject:
Thanks Gary,
enlightened as always!!
So basicly anything that is current and says suitable for JAA/JAR is fine and go for it?
Also, Anyone have any advice re the medical requirements and possible fail reasons? (check previous post, i have asthma and am overweight but would be losing it before the lessons, although not before a medical if it wont affect it much)
Just being overweight isn't a barrier to holding a medical... I've never had a problem!
Asthma potentially could be. How severe is it? If you're going for a Class 1, at Gatwick, expect them to ask you to run around the block a few times...! They may also request further information from your GP, which rather drags the process out a bit. _________________ J.
Joined: Aug 07, 2010 Posts: 19 Location: Leeds, West Yorkshire
Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:00 pm Post subject:
Thanks for the reply,
The Asthma isnt too bad, it is brought on by excersise, although its managable without problems, and i dont forsee much excersise involved in aviation??
Should i get the Class 1 straight away or just get the 2 for now? i do intend to go onto CPL eventually but if it needs renewing etc then wud it be more economical to just get it when the time comes, or should i get it first to make sure there wont be any barriers to the CPL eventually, as i dont want to just have another hobby, i want to make a living from flying.
I live in Leeds so i will be having it done as locally as possible really.
Thanks, _________________ Thanks for your help, Tony
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cant think of a way to reduce the cost any further.
try to find other hour builders. look to then fly together. Only one of you can 'log' the hours but you'll get twice the actual exposure. Two of you are likely to travel further together (added moral support, and if you can both only afford an hour, individually thats 30mins each way, together you could each fly for an hour in one direction). Visit airfields, meet people, make those all important contacts.
) free/cheaper ppl exams are but two suggestions. Dont expect lots but every little helps.Try to avoid paying huge sums of money up front. Schools do go bust and you'll lose your money. Never pay anything upfront that you cannot afford to lose.
