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HeliTorque Forum Index » Instructor Forum

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Should Students Practice Autos Right To The Ground
Yes
86%
 86%  [ 31 ]
No
13%
 13%  [ 5 ]
Voted : 18
Total Votes : 36
This poll does not expire

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Heli-Ops
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:46 pm    Post subject: Autos to the Ground Reply with quote

There is a deep division among instructors I talk to around the world about conducting autorotations all the way to the ground. Would be interesting to hear everyones thoughts on this, especially the instructor members here.

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Ascend_Charlie
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The question needs to be re-worded - I read it as "Should students take autos to the ground by themselves?" I said NO!

Maybe make it read : "Should students be trained in touchdown autos?"

Change my response to a "YES" because they should see that a properly conducted auto is totally survivable and repeatable. Unfortunately in real life, the ground won't be a flat smooth airfield, it will be a wooded rocky slope. But if the auto is done correctly, the subsequent crash will start from zero speed and 3' agl instead of 30 kt and a huge rate of descent. Much more survivable.
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R22-Adam
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My opinion is, if you don't pracitce it, how can you possible hope to achieve it?
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rotrhd1
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Under the right conditions for training every one who is learning to fly a helicotper should have at least some training in an auto to touchdown.

Sure, the skills to get the machine to a power recovery are absolutely adequate to prevent loss of life in the real situation, but getting the machine to the ground gives the students a sense of closure, dispells any myths about the exercise and boosts self confidence. And, there are still some things that can be messed up and be the difference between a good landing and a not as good one.

In Canada, any machine used for a flight test must be capable of performing a full on auto, and the examiner may, at his or her discretion, ask for a full on auto, so students should be prepared.

Besides, I wouldn't want my first real auto to be my first auto to the ground... imagine what would be going through the mind, on top of the already busy thoughts...!!!!

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northernhero
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

under the caa regs, all abitio students should be shown an engine off landing (please not autorotation to the ground, autorotation is the act of getting the thing down and does not neccessarily need to culminate at the floor............) but they dont neccesarily need to be able to perform one , however type rating students need to be able to perform an EOL surely the wrong way round?

if an ab initio student can do one on a robbie ar a schweizer etc when they convert to an r44/206/350 etc they wil be able to be trained to the hover without potentially damaging an expensive machine and be able to see the difference.

for me all my students (ab initio or to type) do EOL's

perhaps i have the wrong end of the stick , maybe one for an FE?
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Thomas Coupling
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a recent LPC in the 206 I was given the option Shocked

High skids apparently on a 206 - Bell don't like them to the ground Confused

What a load of tosh!
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northernhero
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

as ive said before, read the manual! the 206 does indeed have a limitation on EOL's with high skids as the mast moves too much and can damage the drag pin/plate
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:00 pm    Post subject: Autos to the ground Reply with quote

Hi Fellow Heli Nuts,

There are many things to consider here!

How in practise are you?

How in practise is your Instructor?

A lot of accidents have been attributed to autos to the ground.

I have a rule of only going "all the way" when conditions are right, that is we have a 10 knot headwind; plus, this is company policy by one of the world's best Instructor's, Mike Smith. Also, it has got to be a learning experience for the student and not just good practise for the instructor - valuable as that is.

If the auto to the ground is undertaken for the right reasons, then it should be done to keep the pilot at "tip top" performance after a pre flight briefing.

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2pwrr
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a rule yes students need to do full touch down autos with qualified instructors (never solo) as has been said by rotrhd1 here in Canada you may be asked to demonstrate one to the examiner for the flight test so you need to be confident at them!

also if you are doing them you need to set rules ie minimum winds maximum gust decision heights etc and either pilot or student says power you do a power recovery gets rid of the confusion

Cheers
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Hillerbee
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think they should be thought. After all when your fresh PPL gets an engine failure and he never trained a full-down he just doesn't get it right I'm afraid. I train them when they're really proficient with power recoveries of course. For some people this takes a lot of extra hours. Zero groundspeed is really what I'm looking for, I've seen a lot of full-downs with way to much speed. Speed kills.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just got my CPL(H) flying Jetranger. Through the course of training i never went the whole way down, but in my oppinion, i should. If not to practice EOL all the time, just to see what difference does it bring and what to expect. To avoid damaging the pin while landing, touching down on a runway/taxiway may do the trick. I don't know why EOL has to be like crashing... you never know what's it like, until you do.
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2pwrr
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The biggest problem that I have seen with the full touch down auto's (eol) is that the new instructors are scared of the machinery IE the R22 drivers and I don't blame them If I only had 300 hours I wouldn't want to do full on's in one actually I don't want to teach in one full stop not enough margin for error and I have done EOL's in Hughes 269a,b,c&d's &369 e and Bell 206b/L 430 R22s and R44s
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The UK CAA changed the syllabus, last May. Fred Cross ( Chief examiner ) bought in this change to go with the rest of Europe. I think this is mainly due to R22's getting bent !
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412driver
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MY opinion:

My students do many FULL ON autos BEFORE solo. My students show me that if when they go solo the engine quits, they will lower collective on the top and pull it at the bottom.

any instructor that allows a student to go solo without them be reasonably competent at full ons is sending them out to get hurt should the engine quit.

as to instructors with "low time" being scared to do them? then get the heck out of the instructor game.

harsh words? you bet. the question is to ask yourself as your student flies away: "what would happen if the engine quit?"

this is a black and white issue to me.......

In Canada, as mentioned, it can be (and often is) requested on the flight test.
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Inthetin
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here in the states, the only time we did full downs was CFI training and that was with the CP. I really enjoyed them as it was something new but it wasn't the hardest part of the auto.
IMHO, as long as you have taught your student the right way to enter and establish themselves in the auto, then by the time they reach the point where they are used to recovering in the simulated engine failure that you have been teaching them, they will survive from 5 foot!
Who cares really what happens to the helicopter! Great to have been able to save it from damage but Ascend_Charlie said it right. In real life it may not be to a nice flat surface anyway so the A/C is going to be trashed. Cool
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