R22 v's Schweizer 300 for training

Helirazor

Can anyone tell me why the Schweizer 300 is so much more expensive per hour than a R22?

Prices I've found:-

R22 £215.00 per hour

Schweizer 300 £275.00 per hour

Both plus the dreaded Vodka And Tonic...

WhirlyGirl · Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:12 pm Post subject:

Helirazor,

I'm sure it's down to operating costs - for a start the Schweizer burns a couple of gallons an hour more fuel. Both machines have their pros and cons.

I found a few comparisons on a website here.

WhirlyGirl Cool

_________________
CPL(H) / FI(H) - Cabri G2, R22, S300, R44, B206
Flight Examiner (H), Ground Examiner (H)

Helirazor · Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:31 pm Post subject:

Thanks once again WG!

hey I've found an advantage to being 5' 7" and 70 Kg's I knew the R22 fitted me well lol.

Flying Foxy · Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:09 pm Post subject:

Yup, the 300 burns 11 gph (CBi anyway - the 300 C is more) and then it's a fully-articulated head vs a non-artic head so maintenance will cost more I guess.

On the comparison between the two for training, the 300 was designed as a trainer whereas the R22 was designed to be a low cost owner/pilot transit machine but due to its low(er) cost of running/maint it has been used extensively for training purposes. The extra inertia in the 3-blade rotor system of the 300 makes it very student-friendly as there is more 'vital time' to park the lever in case of necessity. It's a great machine to fly!

FF
_________________
PPL(H)
Schweizer 300

helicopter-redeye · Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:29 am Post subject:

More to do with demand and supply as there are very few Schw. machines comp. to R22. So even if you train on a Schw. finding one to hire post training is 'harder'.

Compare to US costs, both a lower ...
_________________
helicopter-redeye
CPL/IR(H)

AS355. B206B/L. R44.

http://www.helicopter-redeye.com

Hughes500 · H Addict Joined: Jan 18, 2006 Posts: 334 Location: Devon

Although the 300 is more expensive, generally students take about 10 hours less to pass the course due to the schweizer being a better helicopter
Also check what you are getting for your money. I charge £ 275 an hour before block discount but that includes groundschool, ground exams, landing fees, insurance xs of £ 1000 ( normally 5% of hull value )

WhirlyGirl · Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:28 pm Post subject:

That's true, I know some schools have to whack a great big landing fee on top, and some even charge for circuits!!

Hugues500, are you talking about £275 for the 300? It's true that they are a bit few and far between but I think they make great training aircraft. I guess most studes go for the 22 because of the 60 odd quid an hour price difference, but you make a good point about taking less hours to complete the course - I bet there's not much in it if you take that into account (unless, I suppose, if you manage to get your PPL in the R22 in exactly 45 hours).

WhirlyGirl Cool

_________________
CPL(H) / FI(H) - Cabri G2, R22, S300, R44, B206
Flight Examiner (H), Ground Examiner (H)

Hughes500 · H Addict Joined: Jan 18, 2006 Posts: 334 Location: Devon

Yes that is for a 300, comes down to 260 with 20 hours upfront. Fraid a 500 is £ 525 an hour

Helirazor · Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:57 pm Post subject:

The 500 is such a nice machine tho (dribble dribble...lol) its worth it.

Ok Smack in the face reality check I haven't even got my PPL(H) yet but I just love the look of the 500!

WhirlyGirl · Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:56 pm Post subject:

Hughes500,

Didn't think it would be for a 500 somehow! So how many Schweizer schools / places that rent Schweizers do you think there are in the UK? Oxford use to have them I think but the heli school seems to have closed down since Andy left.

I flew the 300 for a couple of hours today. Went on a bit of a nav-ex which was great experience. Coming back was interesting... 43kt ground speed and I could see the cars overtaking me. Laughing

Was lucky with the weather.

WhirlyGirl Cool

_________________
CPL(H) / FI(H) - Cabri G2, R22, S300, R44, B206
Flight Examiner (H), Ground Examiner (H)

Hughes500 · H Addict Joined: Jan 18, 2006 Posts: 334 Location: Devon

WG

have no idea on number of schools. The Cbi is making a bit of a comeback though. Cabair have just purchased 2. Bournemouth, Biggin Hill, Gloucster,Shoreham,Thruxton all have 300's for hire. Anything North of there is a foreign country to me !!!!!!
Interestingly the world 's biggest school uses cbi's, the reason being they are much better training helicopter and built like the brick out house.
As for costs consider the following
As a private pilot you will never use the 200 hours a year you have before an R22 needs rebuilding. Average private owner flies less than 100 hours a year. Therefore over 12 years or 1200 hours you have a £ 60k rebuild. in the same time nothing would have been replaced on a Schweizer - there is no time limit on any part or airframe.

WhirlyGirl · Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:44 pm Post subject:

Well that's promising. Maybe if there are more in the country the costs will become more comparable with the Robbos. Just checked the G-INFO register and it's showing 41 Schweizer 269s (not including 5 the 269Ds) compared with the 233 R22s so still a little way to go there!!

I don't know what the comparison is like between the two aircraft in the USA, but the Bristow Academy (formerly Helicopter Adventures) seems to only have prices for Schweizers which are about the same as our costs but in $ USD!! If only we could pay that here!!

WhirlyGirl Cool

_________________
CPL(H) / FI(H) - Cabri G2, R22, S300, R44, B206
Flight Examiner (H), Ground Examiner (H)

rick1128 · Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:12 pm Post subject:

Maybe I was fortunate but I had the ability to discuss training helicopter choices with several highly experienced helicopter pilots who were not working as flight instructors at the time. I went with the 300 and was quite happy with that choice. The C and CBi are different enough to cause some concern initially with new pilots.

The 269 or the civilian version as the 300A were designed as a US Army training helicopter. I have watched video of the 269 and Hiller 12E during auto rotation training at Fort Rucker in the late 1960's. Back when just about the only way to bust out of flight training was to kill yourself and the instructor in a crash. It was interesting to see the blades and tails flex on touchdown. They are one tough helicopter. I can't see a R22 doing that.

slick1537 · Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:20 pm Post subject:

Here in the US most schools fly the r22 but the 300 seems to be gaining popularity. Our school just got a 300 for instrument training. My instructor sings praises to it, and he did his training completely in a r22. He said the 300 practically flies itself compared to the 22, and my favorite, practically does the auto for you.

rick1128 · Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:21 pm Post subject:

I have been looking at purchasing a helicopter for personal use over the last month. Using Schweizer's and Robinson's figures and adjusting them for current rates, I found that the CBi has a lower operating cost per hour than the 22. With the 300C just a bit higher. While the fuel costs are higher, the maintenance reserves for the CBi are much lower and the 300C is almost the same as the 22. When you figure in insurance costs the 300 really shine over the 22. The only way I can see the lower rate on the 22 is that the flight schools treat the 22 as a throw away helicopter. As it approaches 2200 hours, it's put up for sale and gone. And the flight school doesn't really worry about reserves.