Joined: Feb 14, 2008 Posts: 888 Location: Stavanger, Norway
Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:14 pm Post subject:
More bent airframes in the UK due to EOL's... not quite.
Practice EOL's are fine providing the FI demo-ing or instructing has been taught to do and teach them properly, more importantly that they are able to tell early enough if a potential problem is begining to occur... and how to correct it in the right manner.
Conditions must be correct too, minimum of 10 kts of wind speed and cross winds only from the right if flying an anti-clockwise rotor.
Unfortunately there is always a degree of risk, but this goes for all activities, even crossing the road or farting near a naked flame.
I ve not looked at Gary's database for any info but I wonder what (if any) the correlation between FI experience/full down/power recovery and accidents are?
W. _________________ In memory of Skippy the Dog - "www.pilotsnpaws.org" - RIP Scruffy.x
Joined: Feb 20, 2008 Posts: 1059 Location: New York
Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:42 pm Post subject:
Copter wrote:
PilotWolf wrote:
Only during training/checkrides...
Scary (1st time), noisy - onto a taxiway, different to power recovery!
UK do all of them to the ground I think - hence more bent airframes? (Discuss!)
W.
it depends on vertical speed near the ground
No, it's scary any time! You realize that there is no room for mistakes.
I know, been there....done that.
Engine popped at about 200 feet. Cyclic pushed over, collective dumped and down I went as fast as I could get it to maintain rotor speed. Actually rode the flair in, leveled skids and pulled collective as the ship came in on a running landing. Not the thing I wish to repeat.
_________________ "A Copter Pilot's Life has it's... ups and downs"
Bell 47-206, Schweizer 300/500, Citation 525
Last edited by afterburner on Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Feb 20, 2008 Posts: 1059 Location: New York
Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:05 pm Post subject: Autos
pilotwolf,
Yes indeed. Power recovery becomes nothing more than a controlled steep approach.
Keep in mind that things are much easier when you know what is coming....
The "real thing" catches you by surprise and you need to really push yourself to overcome the " oh crap" syndrome which uses up valuable time.
I try to always focus on two things:
Engine out near ground.....right pedal, settle and pull collective
Engine out at altitude......cyclic forward ( if below autorotation speed *) and collective down, then pray.
* POST AMEMDED TO CORRECT STATEMENT _________________ "A Copter Pilot's Life has it's... ups and downs"
Bell 47-206, Schweizer 300/500, Citation 525
Last edited by afterburner on Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:04 am; edited 1 time in total
Dont mean to be critical AB, but why put the cylic fwd at altitude ? Only answer can be that you are cruising at less than auto speed. Otherwise you will loose your rrpm, remember when you ease the cylic back to your given auto speed from a cruise the rrpm will go up due to disc loading ( push it forward and rrpm will go down as you off load the disc, takes some time before rrpm will increase with an increase in speed) immediately ,then will settle back as the ac slows to your selected atitude.
There is no problem in an EOL to the ground, in most pistons without a governor it is preferable then arsing around with the throttle.
i've just completed extra training in the R22 practicing just EOL to the ground (grass FATO) with a 20'000 hour pilot. he was my examiner for PPL and LPC and type exams. He is signed off to do them. first time i shat myself as it is nothing like autos to the power recovery. by the third try i was STARTING to get it nailed.
would i like to do it for real - no, however that lesson really gave me an idea of what it will be like should i need to, if you haven't done one before to the ground i really recommend it, obviously with someone signed off to do it so you don't bend anything.
As for what hughes 500 says; if AB is instructing quite often he'll be flying slower than cruise speed - i know i did when training - which requires the initial flare to maintain the rotor rpm and then forward cyclic to get a safe auto speed so you can flare at the bottom - also for different aircraft and rotorhead types, as you probably know, the performance varies.
On the robinson safety course you learn how unforgiving the robbos can be and also how rarely the engines actually conk out. Perhaps the aircraft AB is flying doesn't req the initial flare check to maintain rotor rpm? _________________ PPL (H)
R22
B206
If it moves i want a go
Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:18 pm Post subject: Re: Autos
afterburner wrote:
pilotwolf,
Yes indeed. Power recovery becomes nothing more than a controlled steep approach.
Keep in mind that things are much easier when you know what is coming....
The "real thing" catches you by surprise and you need to really push yourself to overcome the " oh crap" syndrome which uses up valuable time.
I try to always focus on two things:
Engine out near ground.....right pedal, settle and pull collective
Engine out at altitude......cyclic forward, and collective down, then pray.
I don't thing that ....cyclic forward is good idea when you have enough altitude and speed. Cuz it may cause MR rpm drop.
Joined: Feb 20, 2008 Posts: 1059 Location: New York
Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:39 am Post subject:
Hughes500 wrote:
Dont mean to be critical AB, but why put the cylic fwd at altitude ? .
Your not being critical at all. The engine failure occurred on climb-out below autorotation speed. I needed to get the nose pointed down to prevent rotor RPM decay.
We were climbing out a bit steep to avoid obstacles and as we cleared the HV envelope, pulled cyclic back to Vy. I had little time to restore proper AR speed. Nose needed to go down.
At altitude, your analogy would be correct. The rotors would spin up as you mentioned due to disc loading.
Statement should have read: "Engine out at altitude (below AR speed)".
NOTE ADDED: Don't always think thousands when you hear "altitude" . Altitude in my case was only 200 feet!
I sometimes forget that readers can't read my mind.
Thanks Andrew for your input.
Copter....you are correct. When you have sufficient altitude and proper speed, more time is available to set up the autorotation, but then again, we can't always get our way. _________________ "A Copter Pilot's Life has it's... ups and downs"
Bell 47-206, Schweizer 300/500, Citation 525
Last edited by afterburner on Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:35 am; edited 2 times in total
Does having a fully articulated rotorhead make any difference to an auto or how you execute it ??? _________________ PPL (H)
R22
B206
If it moves i want a go
Joined: Feb 14, 2008 Posts: 888 Location: Stavanger, Norway
Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:00 pm Post subject:
There's no requirement for an FI to be signed off to do EOL's in the UK. A PPL could do EOL's if insurance policies allowed them or the a/c owner/operator... not likely though.
oh ok, didn't know that, must be the operator requirement for the guys i fly with.
- by the way wasn't nearly as much fun doing engine offs in the B206.
... oh the engines stopped, more milk in your tea vicar? game of eye-spy anyone? no, ok i'll sing a little tune and reflect on life while we land gently in this field, on the other hand lets use that field, or maybe that one.....
you get the idea. _________________ PPL (H)
R22
B206
If it moves i want a go
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