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Should Students Practice Autos Right To The Ground |
Yes |
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86% |
[ 31 ] |
No |
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13% |
[ 5 ] |
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Voted : 18 |
Total Votes : 36 |
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This poll does not expire |
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Heli-Ops H Addict


 Joined: May 08, 2005 Posts: 1078 Location: Auckland, New Zealand

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Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:46 pm Post subject: Autos to the Ground |
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There is a deep division among instructors I talk to around the world about conducting autorotations all the way to the ground. Would be interesting to hear everyones thoughts on this, especially the instructor members here.
Heli Ops |
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Ascend_Charlie H Addict


 Joined: Aug 23, 2005 Posts: 266 Location: On a course.... golf course

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Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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The question needs to be re-worded - I read it as "Should students take autos to the ground by themselves?" I said NO!
Maybe make it read : "Should students be trained in touchdown autos?"
Change my response to a "YES" because they should see that a properly conducted auto is totally survivable and repeatable. Unfortunately in real life, the ground won't be a flat smooth airfield, it will be a wooded rocky slope. But if the auto is done correctly, the subsequent crash will start from zero speed and 3' agl instead of 30 kt and a huge rate of descent. Much more survivable. |
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R22-Adam High Flying 'Torquer


 Joined: Apr 02, 2005 Posts: 209 Location: Dartford

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Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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My opinion is, if you don't pracitce it, how can you possible hope to achieve it? _________________ Adam Bailey
PPL(H) - Based Headcorn/Denham/Manston/Panshanger/Shoreham/Brands Hatch
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rotrhd1 Shy 'Torquer


 Joined: Jul 30, 2005 Posts: 9 Location: Vancouver Island

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Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:04 am Post subject: |
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Under the right conditions for training every one who is learning to fly a helicotper should have at least some training in an auto to touchdown.
Sure, the skills to get the machine to a power recovery are absolutely adequate to prevent loss of life in the real situation, but getting the machine to the ground gives the students a sense of closure, dispells any myths about the exercise and boosts self confidence. And, there are still some things that can be messed up and be the difference between a good landing and a not as good one.
In Canada, any machine used for a flight test must be capable of performing a full on auto, and the examiner may, at his or her discretion, ask for a full on auto, so students should be prepared.
Besides, I wouldn't want my first real auto to be my first auto to the ground... imagine what would be going through the mind, on top of the already busy thoughts...!!!!
RH1 |
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northernhero 'Torquing Regularly


 Joined: Oct 24, 2005 Posts: 70 Location: oop north

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Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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under the caa regs, all abitio students should be shown an engine off landing (please not autorotation to the ground, autorotation is the act of getting the thing down and does not neccessarily need to culminate at the floor............) but they dont neccesarily need to be able to perform one , however type rating students need to be able to perform an EOL surely the wrong way round?
if an ab initio student can do one on a robbie ar a schweizer etc when they convert to an r44/206/350 etc they wil be able to be trained to the hover without potentially damaging an expensive machine and be able to see the difference.
for me all my students (ab initio or to type) do EOL's
perhaps i have the wrong end of the stick , maybe one for an FE? |
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Thomas Coupling H Addict


 Joined: Jul 26, 2004 Posts: 490 Location: How do I know...The map is on the back seat!

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Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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On a recent LPC in the 206 I was given the option
High skids apparently on a 206 - Bell don't like them to the ground
What a load of tosh! _________________ TC - Pilot to the Stars.
GPS - No fix available  |
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northernhero 'Torquing Regularly


 Joined: Oct 24, 2005 Posts: 70 Location: oop north

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Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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as ive said before, read the manual! the 206 does indeed have a limitation on EOL's with high skids as the mast moves too much and can damage the drag pin/plate _________________ R22, H269, R44, B206, EC120, AS350,
it is all up and down in this job........... |
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blme H Addict


 Joined: Jul 22, 2004 Posts: 262 Location: Radway, Warwickshire

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Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:00 pm Post subject: Autos to the ground |
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Hi Fellow Heli Nuts,
There are many things to consider here!
How in practise are you?
How in practise is your Instructor?
A lot of accidents have been attributed to autos to the ground.
I have a rule of only going "all the way" when conditions are right, that is we have a 10 knot headwind; plus, this is company policy by one of the world's best Instructor's, Mike Smith. Also, it has got to be a learning experience for the student and not just good practise for the instructor - valuable as that is.
If the auto to the ground is undertaken for the right reasons, then it should be done to keep the pilot at "tip top" performance after a pre flight briefing.
blme _________________ Flying for 34 years
Fixed wing 20 years single and multi engine
Helicopters 14 years both turbine and piston
CPL H
Instructor 10 years
FE,TRE,
Ground Examiner
Night Instructor
Love it all |
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2pwrr Starting to 'Torque


 Joined: Dec 31, 2005 Posts: 11 Location: Canada

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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:48 am Post subject: |
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As a rule yes students need to do full touch down autos with qualified instructors (never solo) as has been said by rotrhd1 here in Canada you may be asked to demonstrate one to the examiner for the flight test so you need to be confident at them!
also if you are doing them you need to set rules ie minimum winds maximum gust decision heights etc and either pilot or student says power you do a power recovery gets rid of the confusion
Cheers |
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Hillerbee 'Torquing Regularly


 Joined: Aug 17, 2005 Posts: 54 Location: Ireland

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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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I think they should be thought. After all when your fresh PPL gets an engine failure and he never trained a full-down he just doesn't get it right I'm afraid. I train them when they're really proficient with power recoveries of course. For some people this takes a lot of extra hours. Zero groundspeed is really what I'm looking for, I've seen a lot of full-downs with way to much speed. Speed kills. |
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Phoinix Starting to 'Torque


 Joined: May 11, 2005 Posts: 25

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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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I just got my CPL(H) flying Jetranger. Through the course of training i never went the whole way down, but in my oppinion, i should. If not to practice EOL all the time, just to see what difference does it bring and what to expect. To avoid damaging the pin while landing, touching down on a runway/taxiway may do the trick. I don't know why EOL has to be like crashing... you never know what's it like, until you do. |
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2pwrr Starting to 'Torque


 Joined: Dec 31, 2005 Posts: 11 Location: Canada

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Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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The biggest problem that I have seen with the full touch down auto's (eol) is that the new instructors are scared of the machinery IE the R22 drivers and I don't blame them If I only had 300 hours I wouldn't want to do full on's in one actually I don't want to teach in one full stop not enough margin for error and I have done EOL's in Hughes 269a,b,c&d's &369 e and Bell 206b/L 430 R22s and R44s |
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Hughes500 H Addict


 Joined: Jan 18, 2006 Posts: 334 Location: Devon

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Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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The UK CAA changed the syllabus, last May. Fred Cross ( Chief examiner ) bought in this change to go with the rest of Europe. I think this is mainly due to R22's getting bent ! |
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412driver Shy 'Torquer


 Joined: Nov 27, 2006 Posts: 6 Location: Abbotsford BC

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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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MY opinion:
My students do many FULL ON autos BEFORE solo. My students show me that if when they go solo the engine quits, they will lower collective on the top and pull it at the bottom.
any instructor that allows a student to go solo without them be reasonably competent at full ons is sending them out to get hurt should the engine quit.
as to instructors with "low time" being scared to do them? then get the heck out of the instructor game.
harsh words? you bet. the question is to ask yourself as your student flies away: "what would happen if the engine quit?"
this is a black and white issue to me.......
In Canada, as mentioned, it can be (and often is) requested on the flight test. |
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Inthetin Shy 'Torquer


 Joined: Dec 26, 2006 Posts: 5 Location: Florida

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Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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Here in the states, the only time we did full downs was CFI training and that was with the CP. I really enjoyed them as it was something new but it wasn't the hardest part of the auto.
IMHO, as long as you have taught your student the right way to enter and establish themselves in the auto, then by the time they reach the point where they are used to recovering in the simulated engine failure that you have been teaching them, they will survive from 5 foot!
Who cares really what happens to the helicopter! Great to have been able to save it from damage but Ascend_Charlie said it right. In real life it may not be to a nice flat surface anyway so the A/C is going to be trashed.  |
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