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HeliTorque :: View topic - Abingdon Fayre Air & Country Show 2006
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HeliTorque Forum Index » Upcoming Events

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Abingdon Fayre Air & Country Show 2006 Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
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oi_martin
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear All

Looking at your arrival times, Neil appears to be getting all the helis in inside the last hour of arrivals.
If I remember rightly last year we were quite busy from 10am onwards with all the planks and flex wings etc.

We will be one helimarshaller down for this event.

It would be helpful for us marshallers if arriving pilots could flash the landing light a couple of times when you have sight of the first catching marshaller. We are never quite sure if pilots have seen us.

Look forward to seeing you all again and some new faces.
Martin
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James T Lowe
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm. Hand off the collective in last stages of approach, or hover... could be interesting!

What would you say to the AAIB? "The engine quit when my hand wasn't on the collective, so I couldn't immediately do anything about it." Wink
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heliaviator
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oi_martin - what JTL is getting at is that we are taught, or at least I was never take your hand off the collective below 500ft

In my days of R22 carb heat flying I always put down to adjust carb heat when hovering
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James T Lowe
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup.

Learnt a lesson from instructor early on. Left the trim on in the R22, got down to the hover, and he pointed it out. So I, of course, put the trim away, and promptly got a ticking off.... Wink

It would be better to acknowledge via a radio channel. Could there be a channel at the site on the day dedicated for marshallers? Helicopters (or at least the ones I fly at Costock now) have a frequency change button on the cyclic, so if it's pre-programmed, we can easily flick to that to pass a message to a marshaller.
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Flying Foxy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where's the LL switch in a Robbo? On the 300, it's on the cyclic just below the hand grip (two positions for one light or two) - to the left of the grip is a radio toggle switch for two frequencies set up on the r/t.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately it varies depending upon exact model and build of R22. It's one of those switches that moves around between machines, and can become elusive just when you need it!!!

Sometimes on the cyclic upright, sometimes on the panel. Either way left hand operation whilst right hand stays on the cyclic.

Quote:
So I, of course, put the trim away, and promptly got a ticking off....


I had exactly the same "lesson" when I adjusted Carb Heat in the hover on an LPC. CFI pointed out that it was borderline yellow arc, I pulled in more Carb Heat, he explained that I should land in future rather than adjusting in the hover.

When I have landed at airports in the past, the controller has got me into the hover and then asked me to confirm that I am visual with the heli-marshaller.

If this has been a problem at Abingdon previously I would have thought that they could do the same, thus avoiding frequency changes in the final approach or hover (which again requires left hand off the collective in some R22 machines - others have a button on the cyclic for frequency change)

RC
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WhirlyGuy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

heliaviator wrote:
oi_martin - what JTL is getting at is that we are taught, or at least I was never take your hand off the collective below 500ft

In my days of R22 carb heat flying I always put down to adjust carb heat when hovering


Sorry to butt in on the post like this but from the way I learnt it was not so much drummed in but told to us that you shouldn't really ever let go of the collective at all for any long period of time. By long I mean anything more than a couple of seconds.

The reason being that if you have an engine failure in a 22 then there is pretty much only about one second that you have to act in and if you don't act really quick then you are going to end up as heli-road-kill.

Do the Marshalers not wear head receivers then?
If they do then surely just an acknowledgment is a much safer way to fly for both ourselves and the Marshaler?

Also just to point out something else that springs to mind. I personally think that Marshalers should always wear some kind of head receiver as due to Air Law (what little I remember!!) if we (we being the pilots) don't agree with something that a Marshaler is signaling to us then we do not have to comply. If we as the pilot felt something was dangerous and needed to do a quick 180 turn then it would be good that the marshaler could hear this and high tail it out of the way if needed!! Laughing

Quite an important point I think.

Going back to letting go of the collective lower near 500ft or lower I think is a very bad idea. As we all know this is in the dead man's curve and not a good idea.

Head receivers all round I say!!

Safe Flying & Best wishes,

WhirlyGuy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If a marshaller gave me a signal to land somewhere potentially hazardous, like out of wind, on a slope, or next to another heli with the rotors running, and I was not happy about it, I would not comply with it, headsets or not. This is what I have been taught and I think it makes sense - the last thing we want to do is put ourselves in potentially dangerous situations.

Also I would not feel comfortable fiddling with the landing light at such a higly-stressful and intense part of the flight.

WhirlyGirl Cool
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oi_martin
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to cause a problem everyone. Not having a licence I was not aware that the LL switch is not always reachable without taking your hand off the collective, which is obviously a no-no below 500ft. I just remember seeing the switch on the collective of a 206. I shall find this out if I ever get to learn.

Whirlygirl, you are quite correct, us marshallers are only there for guidance.
In this case the heli park is flat and will have been checked over. I believe ATC there, is an information service usually operated by the guys from Kemble and there is only one frequency. I usually wear an earpiece for my receiver but i was marshalling the planks last year ( interesting that was!!).

Anyway, wrist slapped .

See you in 18 days. Safe flying and happy landings.

Martin
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oi_martin
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh by the way, I shall be there from Friday afternoon so should be able to get an idea of the layout and a potential meeting point while the air display is on. Will try and plonk a message on this thread when I know.

Certainly looking forward to the saturday evening party especially if the Polish navy come over again. They brought some Polish vodka last year. The strength of that stuff would probably get a turbine running!!

Martin
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WhirlyGuy wrote:
Sorry to butt in on the post like this but from the way I learnt it was not so much drummed in but told to us that you shouldn't really ever let go of the collective at all for any long period of time. By long I mean anything more than a couple of seconds.

The reason being that if you have an engine failure in a 22 then there is pretty much only about one second that you have to act in and if you don't act really quick then you are going to end up as heli-road-kill.


First bit, yes. It's only sensible to cover all controls; but I don't think I'd be too pre-occupied on concentrating on keeping hold of the collective though.

However I do take issue with your second part - you state that you have one second in which to act, which is about right (1.1s in the climb, but that's splitting hairs Wink ); however, you have to "act" not "dump the lever", the reaction should be to check the cyclic back - you'll always have hold of that, won't you? Trade the airspeed for Rotor RPM, then you'll have AGES to get your hand back to the lever to enter the auto. Build the airspeed again, on the way down.

WhirlyGuy wrote:
Going back to letting go of the collective lower near 500ft or lower I think is a very bad idea. As we all know this is in the dead man's curve and not a good idea.


For the climb, yes, that's when you have least time to deal with the problem. But on descent, when do you lose the carb. heat that you'll pulled fully on before you started on the way down?

The point of the H/V graph is to show where areas of flight should be avoided - my understanding of that, is that it'd be difficult, if not impossible, to land without the engine. Therefore, it's not really going to matter where your hand is!! Wink
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oi_martin
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I may have started to send this off thread with my suggestion.

Martin
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry Martin!

Back to Abingdon then. Perhaps Passengers could give you a thumbs up on pilot's command. Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably the best idea.
We will be in either hivis orange or green.

For safety reasons we all wear hi vis orange gloves instead of using bats. Marshalling helis with bats is a no no. If the downdraft catches one is hurts when it hits the head.

Looking forward to the event.

Cheers
Martin
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig / Mark,

Do you have this year's briefing sheet? I was just looking at it and trying to work out if the "H" they have marked out is the same place you guys landed at last year. Confused

WhirlyGirl Cool
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