Welcome Guest
HeliTorque
  
User Control Panel

Security Code: : Security Code
Type Security Code Here: :
 
Register Here
Lost Password?

Online Stats:
Visitors: 32
Members: 0
Total: 32

Membership:
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Registering: 0
Members: 6662
Latest: chrisw

Most Ever Online
Visitors: 447
Members: 10
Total: 457


HeliTorque :: View topic - Should I Even Start?
Forum FAQ
Forum FAQ
Search
Search
Memberlist
Memberlist
Usergroups
Usergroups
Profile
Profile
Contact Manager
Contact Manager
Log in
Log in
Log in to check your private messages
Log in to check your private messages
HeliTorque Forum Index » Wannabes

Post new topic   Reply to topic All times are GMT
Should I Even Start? Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
tonyboy
Starting to 'Torque
Starting to 'Torque


Offline
Joined: Aug 07, 2010
Posts: 19
Location: Leeds, West Yorkshire



PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:35 am    Post subject: Should I Even Start? Reply with quote

Hi all, First post after registering and reading lots of other posts.

OK so here goes...

I am really lookinf dorward to starting my PPLH, i have never flown before and want to start. I cant say its something ive always wanted to do, but it certainly is something i would love to do.

Here is my problem (just like everyone else at the moment)

1. Is it worth starting, i dont want to be megga rich, but i dont want to worry about spending too much at the shop... so after passing the CPLH at about 200 hours or so, is it possible to start earning around 25k+ ... i have to be able to justify the outlay to the Mrs!!

2. While searching on the internet for helicopter vacancies, there does not seem to be many at all!!! All the ones i have found are looking for 2/3000 hours plus as a starting base line. So... Where do you look for the entry level jobs??? i know the offshore oil rigs etc is a good place to start, but i cant even find anything out about those....what are they called???

3. I wouldnt be in a lot of debt because i intend to save up the costs through my wages, so debt wouldnt be too much of a concern, but i still need to earn a living!!! I realise that the industry is a little down at the moment, but it would be at least a year before i could start the PPL due to needing to save and lose some weight!!! so is it likely to pick up and start to be more lucrative etc? Like i said i dont want to be super rich, but i do need to be able to earn a reasonable living and justify the outlay to the Mrs!

So, thanks for any help and advice, i have read loads of forums that say its only 5/10 years before you start earning the big money, then in the same post saying ther are no jobs for new starts, so its a bit of a vicious circle really isnt it.??

Hope to receive a response soon,
_________________
Thanks for your help, Tony
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
haggishunter
H Addict
H Addict


Offline
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 888
Location: Stavanger, Norway


uk.gif

PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi there, welcome to the forums!

All the questions you have asked are very normal for someone wanting to start out in the industry.

If you are aiming for the offshore industry you will need to consider the following qualifications, you can take this list and use Google or call some schools to get rough prices:

PPL(H) - You probably know about this already I guess.

ATPL(H) Theory - This will allow to you later on to apply for an ATPL(H) which will allow you to upgrade to a Captain/Command position in an offshore company/multi-crew aircraft. These exams are also required for the application of an Instrument Rating (IR) which is also required for working Norsth Sea. These exams have to be completed prior to starting your CPL(H) flying course.

CPL(H) - Completing the course and test, along with the ATPL(H) exams will allow you to apply for a Commercial Licence, allowing you to fly and get paid by an operator.

IR(H) - The Instrument Rating is required by all North Sea operators allowing the crew to operate an IFR approved helicopter in cloud (to keep it simple, google for the long winded version)

Unfortunately the option of starting your career in the North Sea no longer exists. Most of the companies will take on people who already have all the above qualifications and min 500-1000 hrs. Here in Norway you will not get hired with less than 1000hrs. The UK does not have these hours restrictions, but there is plenty of people with hours and all the tickets waiting for the opportunity.

But how did they get the hours is what you are probably thinking?

They probably like most people have completed the CPL(H) course and then the Flight Instructors Rating. Then worked at a school teaching PPL(H), trial lessons, type ratings and maybe CPL(H) courses. Some of these schools may have the licence to conduct commercial work, tours, photography etc. If so an instructor will probably get the opportunity to fly these. However you will have to prove yourself and show your employer you are a capable pilot. When you join a company you have to be prepared to start from the bottom and work your way up.

How about the pay, well it depends what kind of deal you have. Some get a monthly fixed pay, with a small extra for each hour you fly. Others get an hourly rate, I think the adverage in the UK is around 40-45 per flight hour. Some of the guys and girls here can correct me as it's been a couple of years since I flew in the UK. Depending how busy your school is depends how much you earn, it's normal to have some other responsibillities like updating manuals or admin work for bad weather days.

Pay in the North Sea varies slightly with companies and are relative to the cost of living in that country. North Sea operations are conducted from the UK, Norway, Denmark and Holland. Salary increases each year, you will start as a First Officer, then Senior First Officer and finally Captain. Not sure what the starting salary in the UK is right now, I guess around 40-45k per year. Here in Norway it is around 55-60K, mainly because of the high cost of living.

With regards to training expenses, perhaps consider going abroad if you can. Training cost in the states for example are lower then the UK. Bristow Academy is a good place to look at, they can also take you through an integrated course, from nothing straight to CPL(H), missing out the PPL(H) step. As far as I am aware there is only one place in the UK that does that - Cabair, if they still do.

Hope this helps you a bit, we don't bite here unlike some other forums. Don't hesitate to ask any more questions!

HH Very Happy
_________________
ATPL(H) IR(H): SK92, AS355, EC120, R22/44

"When the tough gets going, the tough eat haggis!"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Heliwhore
H Addict
H Addict


Offline
Joined: Mar 29, 2006
Posts: 289
Location: Scotland


australia.gif

PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(edit) HH, I can't believe you beat me to the submit button Rolling Eyes

Ah yes, the age old questions......

Unfortunately there are many answers to these questions.

Firstly, you will never be 'rich' flying helicopters, but you can eventually earn a decent living, so it's just as well that is not your motivation.
As a fresh CPL, you will probably struggle to even get enough work to survive, let alone 25,000. That's not to say that you won't, as you may get lucky, or you may be very good at networking etc to get yourself a good job.

The reality is, unfortunately, that you will probably need to do either you IR, or you FI. With and IR and low hours, you will still find it hard to get a start at the moment, and there is no change on the near horizon, but once again, it depends on you and how well you can network.
An FI is cheaper and will give you more of a chance to get work. There is still a demand for instructors at present, although this market has dropped off a little in the last couple years. If you can get full time work doing this, then you can make your 25k.

Finding work.......hmmm, now this is the interesting part about the industry. Very few positions are advertised, the ones that are usually are for more specialised/advanced positions, not for fresh starters. It's all word of mouth. You will develop contacts through your training progression, try not to piss off too many people along the way, and do your best to appear professional, and you will be heading in the right direction.

As for whether you should start at all? Well unfortunately that one is up to you. You may succeed, you may not. As long as you are happy with your decision to try, then that is all that matters.

You cannot get to the end of a journey without taking the first step......

You will find a lot of support on here, and we will do our best to help you along the way, but definitely don't launch into the rotary world with rose tinted glasses. It can take many years......

No matter what, enjoy the trip as you go.

HW
_________________
Generally wrapped in rubber, be it in the air or on the water.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
haggishunter
H Addict
H Addict


Offline
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 888
Location: Stavanger, Norway


uk.gif

PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The older you get the slower you get... hehe.

Am in ABZ on Wednesday for the stimulator and then staying for the week after that, maybe see you around for beer.

HH
_________________
ATPL(H) IR(H): SK92, AS355, EC120, R22/44

"When the tough gets going, the tough eat haggis!"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tonyboy
Starting to 'Torque
Starting to 'Torque


Offline
Joined: Aug 07, 2010
Posts: 19
Location: Leeds, West Yorkshire



PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your replies.

Im just not sure what to do next really. I have a plan in place that will enable me to take the complete PPL within about 18 months, as i need to save up and lose weight as well. Do you have any thoughts as to whether the industry will be in better shape by that time?

I accept the fact that really the only way ahead is to take the PPL and then the CPL then probably the Instructors course to enable me to teach and earn money that way. I have read several forums though that mainly say the pay is very poor, it is simply a way to build up the hours, is this correct, as the previous post says that i would be able to make the 25k with a full time instructors job. As long as i can earn a reasonable wage then i would be happy to do it for as long as it takes to build up a good deal of hours.

Another query leading on from your responses is the ATPL theory course. What do this entail? Is it something that requires full time attention for months, or is it something that can be done in not too long time? Im not trying to cut corners, simply assessing how much time/money it will require for the full -'nothing to CPL earning money' stages.


Thats that little bit ove with! lol...my next bit is about the offshore section,

Its not that i desperately want to be an offshore pilot, only that i had read/heard that it is a good place to start. I understand now that this might not be the case, until i have logged around 500/1000 hours, then this may be a good route to go into, then earning around 35/40k once i have the hours to start as an offshore pilot, is this correct?

If so, then this is how i understand it...(and i know its not as easy as just walking into jobs, but a simplified version would be this)....
1. Get the PPL(H)
2. Build hours up to start the CPL(H)
3. Pass the CPLH
4. Pass the instructors exams/lessons etc, become an instructor (earning a starting salary of maybe 15/20k??)
5. Build up hours as instructor to around 500/1000 preferably, then apply to offshore?
6. Start as an offshore pilot (earning a starting salary of around 40k??)
--- How long realisticly am i looking at to get to step 6??? -----
I am happy to stop at around 40k, like i said im not in it for the money, but in order to justify doing it all in the first place, the salary/wage would need to be reasonable in the long run.

I have read as much as i can find, but new things keep popping up like the (i think it was ATPL) that you mentioned, the theory section of this that allows for upgrading to Captain/Officer etc. i havent seen anything about this on the Training sections of sites, and know nothing of it really.

I promise i am not a lazy person who doesnt want to research the subject, im just not sure what to look for and where to start, other than speaking to flight schools, which would be slightly biased anyway!!!

Thanks again,
_________________
Thanks for your help, Tony
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
haggishunter
H Addict
H Addict


Offline
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 888
Location: Stavanger, Norway


uk.gif

PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you do your PPL there is a minimum knowledge requirement, by passing several exams you will prove that you have this knowledge. The same goes for the CPL, you are required to complete a theory course through an approved groundschool provider. You only need to complete the CPL exams, however to gain an IR(H) you must have the ATPL(H) exams, which is simply the CPL exams plus a few others. To become a captain on a multi-crew helicopter you must hold an ATPL(H). There is no test for this, it is simply when you have X number of hours mulit-crew, multi-engine, on a tuesday afternoon and the exams etc, etc... you can apply for it.

The CPL allows you to fly as captain of a single pilot helicopter.

A school like Bristol Groundschool (who I used) will provide you with all the materials for a self-study ATPL theory course. You can go at your own pace with this. Throughout the course there is progress test you complete so the school can see your progress. Once completed you attend a 2 weeks exam prep course then go to one of the exam centres to take them. The course with them is split in to two modules. It took me about a year or so to complete it, during this time I was working and hours building.

For those who perhaps just want to instruct or are not interested in the IR route then the CPL exams are probably more appealing, less exams to do. In that case a company like CAPT will be able to provide you with that course. "Paco" on here is the best person to talk to as he runs CAPT.

I worked as an FI for 4 years before I went to North Sea. I was happy flying onshore til I got bored and needed a change. Also it gave me time to save a little towards the IR course (approx. 30k) as few companies were paying pilots through the IR course.

The offshore industry is well paying, you will easily be able to pay off any training loans after a few years and live comfortably. But don't let that hide the fact that the flying is very routine and you spend little time handling the aircraft, most flying is done using autopilots. Good working conditions depending what company you are with and time off is nothing to complain about. Here we have two working systems, 14 days on, 14 days off or 5 on 2 off 5 on 9 off.

My suggestion would be to get the FI rating and as much experience as you can. With more experience comes more opportunities and the onshore sector will open up more to you, perhaps offshore flying won't appeal to you after some time.

But I would speak to some school and they will all give you advice on the best course of action to suit your needs. Also check out Bristol Ground School (www.bristol.gs I think) and that will explain the requirements for the ATPL course.

HH Very Happy
_________________
ATPL(H) IR(H): SK92, AS355, EC120, R22/44

"When the tough gets going, the tough eat haggis!"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tonyboy
Starting to 'Torque
Starting to 'Torque


Offline
Joined: Aug 07, 2010
Posts: 19
Location: Leeds, West Yorkshire



PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HaggisHunter wrote:
When you do your PPL there is a minimum knowledge requirement, by passing several exams you will prove that you have this knowledge. The same goes for the CPL, you are required to complete a theory course through an approved groundschool provider. You only need to complete the CPL exams, however to gain an IR(H) you must have the ATPL(H) exams, which is simply the CPL exams plus a few others. To become a captain on a multi-crew helicopter you must hold an ATPL(H). There is no test for this, it is simply when you have X number of hours mulit-crew, multi-engine, on a tuesday afternoon and the exams etc, etc... you can apply for it.

The CPL allows you to fly as captain of a single pilot helicopter.

A school like Bristol Groundschool (who I used) will provide you with all the materials for a self-study ATPL theory course. You can go at your own pace with this. Throughout the course there is progress test you complete so the school can see your progress. Once completed you attend a 2 weeks exam prep course then go to one of the exam centres to take them. The course with them is split in to two modules. It took me about a year or so to complete it, during this time I was working and hours building.

For those who perhaps just want to instruct or are not interested in the IR route then the CPL exams are probably more appealing, less exams to do. In that case a company like CAPT will be able to provide you with that course. "Paco" on here is the best person to talk to as he runs CAPT.

I worked as an FI for 4 years before I went to North Sea. I was happy flying onshore til I got bored and needed a change. Also it gave me time to save a little towards the IR course (approx. 30k) as few companies were paying pilots through the IR course.

The offshore industry is well paying, you will easily be able to pay off any training loans after a few years and live comfortably. But don't let that hide the fact that the flying is very routine and you spend little time handling the aircraft, most flying is done using autopilots. Good working conditions depending what company you are with and time off is nothing to complain about. Here we have two working systems, 14 days on, 14 days off or 5 on 2 off 5 on 9 off.

My suggestion would be to get the FI rating and as much experience as you can. With more experience comes more opportunities and the onshore sector will open up more to you, perhaps offshore flying won't appeal to you after some time.

But I would speak to some school and they will all give you advice on the best course of action to suit your needs. Also check out Bristol Ground School (www.bristol.gs I think) and that will explain the requirements for the ATPL course.

HH Very Happy



Thanks again, another great answer.

I think what you say is very good advice. Bascily if i want to work offshore (like i said i really dont know, it just seems to be a good idea) then i need to do the PPL and then the ATPL theory and the CPL test.

What about if i didnt do the ATPL theory, would that mean i was never able to do it again, to go on to offshore and IR etc?

I am looking at aflight school local to me, multiflight (based in Leeds Bradford airport - i live about 5 minutes away), www.multiflight.com, they seem fairly good and their hangers/craft are impressive on the ground.

I am happy to commit the time and money into doing this, i would think i need to start at the bottom obviously, which again i dont mind, and work up. I think a good idea for me would be the PPL, then the ATPL and CPL and FI, then hour building, then offshore if it still appeals?...

I think i have it right now.

I think the PPL at multiflight would be around 12k based on about 50/55 hours, then hour building for the CPL about 13k prob, then the CPL itself about 10k and the FI i think is around 10k as well? totalling about 45k before i can even start earning anything. Seems very steep im surprised anyone can afford to do it at all!!! lol

As i said though i dont mind doing it if i can.

What about hour building for the CPL, is there a way around having to pay for all the solo flight building hours...anyone willing to let private pilots take the stick for hour building purposes and log the hours etc?

Wow im so lost haha, i really want to do it and i know it will cost a lot for not a lot of return in the short term, but i dont want to get to the end and realise i wil never make more than 20k a year.

I have no problem talking to flight school etc but they will only tell me what i want to hear in order to have them teach me no doubt.

Sad
_________________
Thanks for your help, Tony
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
flingingwings
H Addict
H Addict


Offline
Joined: Apr 12, 2008
Posts: 280


uk.gif

PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony,

You're right to ask questions. You've over simplified things a little though.

Start by looking here:

http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=175&pagetype=68&gid=780

This is a link to LASORs - a CAA produced document that details all the required hoops to leap though and all the testing/ validity requirements.


The minimum PPL course is 45 hours. Don't plan on achieving anything in minimal hours or you'll run out of money. The National average for a PPL is closer to 65-70 hrs.

You also need to consider extra costs. Medical, books, flight planning equipment, examination fees, groundschool costs, testing fees, licence issue fees etc etc

Your licence is basically type restricted -(In simple terms if it was a car licence and you'd learnt to drive in a Ford Fiesta, the ONLY car you could drive would be a Ford Fiesta.) additional aircraft types require additional training and testing. Each helicopter type rating needs to be revalidated (retested) every 12 months.

Assuming minimums (and in simplistic terms as you need certain categories of experience at varying stages - See the LASORs link above):
PPL - 45 hours.
Hours build till your total flying hours are 150 hours.
Then complete a CPL (H) course - minimum 35 hours (30 for the course plus 5 if you don't hold a night rating already - which you wont do).

Those hours dont include your tests. Expect about 1.5 hours per test, plus examiners fees, plus licence issue fees.

In 99.9999999999999999999999% of cases a basic CPL(H) is a worthless qualification. This is because offshore operators also want an Instrument rating (IR) and training schools, that in the majority of cases also provide charter work, would require an Instructors rating (FI)

In order to complete an FI course your total hours (again with some experience requirements ) will need to be 250 hours. You then have to budget for your 30 hour FI course plus test and rating issue fee from the CAA.

Whilst you are working through this little lot, budget for keeping your flying ratings and your medical valid.

9 years ago my PPL to CPL cost about 47K. Total costs by FI closer to 75K.

The training is the easy bit. As has been suggested getting work is the major hurdle. In the majority of cases low hours FI's are self employed, and are paid per FLYING hour (roughly 50 per hour). On that basis you will need to fly 500 hours to earn 25,000 pa gross. It could well, depending on the place/s you work for, be your financial responsibility to maintain medical and type ratings. As you'll appreciate, you will not be the only pilot where you work, as the 'new' bod you will be sharing any flying with your colleagues.

There are no guarantees. Pilot requirements are based on supply and demand. Industry state in 18 months time is anybodies guess.

Some are lucky, others not so lucky. A friend of mine (ex military) FI'd for probably 7 years (3500ish total hours) before he secured a regular salaired onshore position. Having a certain number of hours does not ensure employability. Many jobs as already mentioned are word of mouth. I'd go further and suggest you cannot afford to 'piss' anybody off - the industry is too small and reputation particularly onshore is everything.

Sorry its a 'blunt' view but I subscribe to believing people have to have all the facts, before making a decision to start. There are exceptions to every rule and job seeking/ gaining employment in this industry is no different - you'll hear the stories no doubt but these individuals are the exception not the rule.

Starting place if you're considering a commercial licence is the medical. No point starting the flying if a CPL is your only goal if you can't/don't get issued a medical (its costs are cheap compared to the flying). Your initial Class 1 medical is issued by the CAA.

Second have an additional marketable trade- something you can do if flying work simply isn't there to ensure you earn, before you need to rely on flying as a source of income.

Probably more food for thought.

Good luck however you choose to move forwards.
_________________
 W.Y.S.I.W.Y.G.


Last edited by flingingwings on Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Skype Name
tonyboy
Starting to 'Torque
Starting to 'Torque


Offline
Joined: Aug 07, 2010
Posts: 19
Location: Leeds, West Yorkshire



PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

flingingwings wrote:
Tony,

You're right to ask questions. You've over simplified things a little though.

Start by looking here:

http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=175&pagetype=68&gid=780

This is a link to LASORs - a CAA produced document that details all the required hoops to leap though and all the testing/ validity requirements.


The minimum PPL course is 55 hours. Don't plan on achieving anything in minimal hours or you'll run out of money. The National average for a PPL is closer to 65-70 hrs.

You also need to consider extra costs. Medical, books, flight planning equipment, examination fees, groundschool costs, testing fees, licence issue fees etc etc

Your licence is basically type restricted -(In simple terms if it was a car licence and you'd learnt to drive in a Ford Fiesta, the ONLY car you could drive would be a Ford Fiesta.) additional aircraft types require additional training and testing. Each helicopter type rating needs to be revalidated (retested) every 12 months.

Assuming minimums (and in simplistic terms as you need certain categories of experience at varying stages - See the LASORs link above):
PPL - 45 hours.
Hours build till your total flying hours are 150 hours.
Then complete a CPL (H) course - minimum 35 hours (30 for the course plus 5 if you don't hold a night rating already - which you wont do).

Those hours dont include your tests. Expect about 1.5 hours per test, plus examiners fees, plus licence issue fees.

In 99.9999999999999999999999% of cases a basic CPL(H) is a worthless qualification. This is because offshore operators also want an Instrument rating (IR) and training schools, that in the majority of cases also provide charter work, would require an Instructors rating (FI)

In order to complete an FI course your total hours (again with some experience requirements ) will need to be 250 hours. You then have to budget for your 30 hour FI course plus test and rating issue fee from the CAA.

Whilst you are working through this little lot, budget for keeping your flying ratings and your medical valid.

9 years ago my PPL to CPL cost about 47K. Total costs by FI closer to 75K.

The training is the easy bit. As has been suggested getting work is the major hurdle. In the majority of cases low hours FI's are self employed, and are paid per FLYING hour (roughly 50 per hour). On that basis you will need to fly 500 hours to earn 25,000 pa gross. It could well, depending on the place/s you work for, be your financial responsibility to maintain medical and type ratings. As you'll appreciate, you will not be the only pilot where you work, as the 'new' bod you will be sharing any flying with your colleagues.

There are no guarantees. Pilot requirements are based on supply and demand. Industry state in 18 months time is anybodies guess.

Some are lucky, others not so lucky. A friend of mine (ex military) FI'd for probably 7 years (3500ish total hours) before he secured a regular salaired onshore position. Having a certain number of hours does not ensure employability. Many jobs as already mentioned are word of mouth. I'd go further and suggest you cannot afford to 'piss' anybody off - the industry is too small and reputation particularly onshore is everything.

Sorry its a 'blunt' view but I subscribe to believing people have to have all the facts, before making a decision to start. There are exceptions to every rule and job seeking/ gaining employment in this industry is no different - you'll hear the stories no doubt but these individuals are the exception not the rule.

Starting place if you're considering a commercial licence is the medical. No point starting the flying if a CPL is your only goal if you can't/don't get issued a medical (its costs are cheap compared to the flying). Your initial Class 1 medical is issued by the CAA.

Second have an additional marketable trade- something you can do if flying work simply isn't there to ensure you earn, before you need to rely on flying as a source of income.

Probably more food for thought.

Good luck however you choose to move forwards.


Wow you're right, its certainly food for thought. Like i said im not too concerned with earning a lot in the first few years, just enough to keep my head up and continue to build hours up etc!

So your saying that its about 55 hours for ppl, then up to 150 for cpl, then cpl, then IR then FI...then i can think about starting to earn?

I have looked around and it seems that they would be about
PPL = 14k
HOUR BUILDING = 14k
CPL = 10k
FI = ??
IR = ?? Cant find these two really, at least not within travelling distance for me.

How much would you say these would cost? Also, i can save up around 10k per year, so if i save enough for the PPL within about 18 months, then the only option for hour building before the CPL is just to hire the helo for solo flights and just miander around in it to build the hours up? is this correct, ie no way to avoid the 14k required to build hours before the CPL.

Then once the CPL has been done in maybe a year altogether (is this full time or part time as i will need to be earning at the same time)...then i should focus on getting the FI so i can earn from lessons,....then eventually the IR before heading towards offshore or similar?

God im getting swamped, every time i receive a reply it gets more complicated and looks less likely that i can ever acheive my goal of being able to earn enough money to not have to worry (im only talking 25/30 until i have supreme hours massed up).

Anyway, thanks so far!!! all very helpful!!!!
_________________
Thanks for your help, Tony
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
flingingwings
H Addict
H Addict


Offline
Joined: Apr 12, 2008
Posts: 280


uk.gif

PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony, check your pm's

You're getting closer, but please have a read of LASORs

You are still thinking in minimums. A PPL MAY well take you 65-70 hours (the National average) budget closer to 17K.

You have to have the 155 hours plus passes in the professional exams (be those CPL or ATPL level) in order to even consider beginning a modular CPL(H) course. So sorry, but there is no way to avoid those hours. Its not simply a case of miandering or burning holes in the sky. Use the hours building to work on flying accuracy and constantly strive to improve your flying ability and knowledge - you won't be the only person doing all this stuff so make maximum use of every hour you fly.

The CPL course will then add an additional 35 hours.

So you'll have somewhere in the region of 190 hours by the time you qualify with a CPL. You cannot earn money from flying until you hold a CPL. I'd just about guarantee you wont find work as a basic CPL holder, especially as currently there are a lot of newly qualified pilots with more than a CPL alone, together with some experienced ones, also looking for work.

From CPL you have a choice to make.
1) Build you hours further until you have 250 hours total. Then complete a 30 hour FI course. FI course costs about 13-15K. You'll additionally have to fund CAA FI test fee and flying (about 1.5 hours) and instructor rating issue fees. Once qualified you will be in a position to look for work as an Instructor, toegther with numerous others. It is highly likley you will be a freelance FI, self employed. Your hours and hence your earnings are therefore never guaranteed. Working as an FI is almost a whole seperate new thread.

2) Complete a multi engine Instrument rating (MEIR)- this course is a mixture of simulator training and flying in a twin engined helicopter. Exact training requirements are a bit academic at this point - but a 40-45k cost for this course is close enough. You would then be looking to work offshore as a co-pilot. The offshore market is also currently not really recruiting, and there are a number of experienced and newly qualified pilots looking for work in this field too.

As you can see there's not a huge difference in costs between completing a MEIR and completing the hours building and FI course.

In a nutshell those are your options. If you follow Option 1 - you'd be looking to teach people to fly, hoping to eventually progress to single engine charter flights on R44s or B206/EC120/AS350 depending on your employer. The standard flying school myth is to suggest that you do this until you have 1500 hrs and then other options become available. Practically that isn't really the case - total hours alone is not the major factor. Right place,right time, right qualifications, right reputation, and what you have done with the hours you have are more important.

Jobs like Police/Air Ambulance will almost certainly ask for (as a minimum) in the region of 1500 hrs TT +50-100 twin engine hours, + 50ish night flying hours. The majority of smaller onshore companies operate single engined aircraft. SE aircraft cannot fly charters at night so with these companies gaining twin engined experience and night flying experience are very limited. Furthermore you'll be the new guy - everybody above you at the same company will also be after any twin or night hours and there will be a 'pecking' order.

Onshore twin charter work with the main 'twin only' operators will in the majority of cases require experience circa 3000 hrs+, an impecable reputation, an IR and experience of using it. Competition for these jobs can be fierce. Some places may ask for less, but expect 1500 hrs, the right type rating and an IR to be the absolute minimum. Onshore twin engine IFR work is mainly single pilot, and that is not an environment for an inexperienced pilot to foray in to, so with a brand new IR offshore as a co-pilot is about your only option.

The exact phrasing used by a poster on another forum escapes me but to summarise:

1) Basic CPL - earning potential basically Nil.
2) CPL + FI - slow progression, lower risk (lots of flying schools), lower earning potential.
2) CPL +IR - higher risk - less offshore vacancies, recruitment is market led, greater potential earnings.

Nobody can advise you on whether to go FI or IR, its a calculated risk either way and a decision that based upon the material facts available at the time you have to make for yourself.
_________________
 W.Y.S.I.W.Y.G.


Last edited by flingingwings on Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Skype Name
veeany
Moderator
Moderator


Offline
Joined: Apr 07, 2005
Posts: 688
Location: England


uk.gif

PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony

Don't take my figures as gospel but use current rates.

There is a Zero to Hero spreadsheet on the Griffin Site at http://www.griffin-helicopters.co.uk/public%20docs/heli%20cost%20to%20fi.xls

I hope it helps.
_________________
Gary
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Skype Name
rjc
High Flying 'Torquer
High Flying 'Torquer


Offline
Joined: Jul 11, 2006
Posts: 189
Location: Cambridge


uk.gif

PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had typed a long e-mail over the costs, based on the multiflight published prices. Then I did a preview and spotted flingingwings response, which was better than mine(!). So rather than load more into the thread, I will say the costs I ended up with was closer to 82,000 for PPL(H) -> CPL(H) -> FI(H). Don't forget VAT goes up to 20% in Jan 2011.

This was PPL(H) in 50 hours. Hour building for 105 hours to get to the 155 min for the CPL(H) course. Leaving the CPL(H) with 190 hours then hour building for 60 hours to get to the 250 min for the FI(H) course and lastly the FI course itself for 30 hours.

Note dual instruction in an R22 is 291/hour and SFH is 220/hour in VAT, so your PPL(H) -> CPL(H) hour building alone is circa 23,000 excluding landing fees.

First of all, as flingingwings said, if you want to look at going commercial, get your Class 1 medical before spending money on anything else. Without that, well your stuffed really. You have to that with the CAA at Gatwick and will set you back 330ish.

Now don't take this as negative, a don't do it, type reply. Only you can really decide if this is for you. I would say, try to avoid getting into debt to do it unless you have a solid backup plan and ensure any significant other is happy with your plans!

Personally I am trying to do all the flying without getting into debt to do it, and with a back-up plan of keeping my day job going with the intention of not being reliant on income from the flying side. The downside to this is the time it all takes, but that is my personal circumstances and my choice.

Helicentre Aviation run career seminars from time to time, details from http://www.flyheli.co.uk/ which may be worth a visit, not least to ask the awkward questions and get an insight into the industry. They are free to attend, I've not been to one but others on here have.

Anyway, good luck with what ever your decision turns out to be.

Lastly, a warning. Once you start flying helicopters, you will find them addictive.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rjc
High Flying 'Torquer
High Flying 'Torquer


Offline
Joined: Jul 11, 2006
Posts: 189
Location: Cambridge


uk.gif

PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

veeany wrote:
Tony

Don't take my figures as gospel but use current rates.

There is a Zero to Hero spreadsheet on the Griffin Site at http://www.griffin-helicopters.co.uk/public%20docs/heli%20cost%20to%20fi.xls

I hope it helps.


Pretty much spot on, bar the ever increasing CAA fees. CAA Ground exams are 66 each now, just paid for 6 of them. CPL issue is 231, CPL test fee is 762. Grant of PPL 253, PPL Skill Test fee 185

I note that some companies now charge 2.5% for paying with a Credit Card, multiflight website said they did when I worked out the costs above. With the added VAT, that could add 5% to the overall costs...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tonyboy
Starting to 'Torque
Starting to 'Torque


Offline
Joined: Aug 07, 2010
Posts: 19
Location: Leeds, West Yorkshire



PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rjc wrote:
veeany wrote:
Tony

Don't take my figures as gospel but use current rates.

There is a Zero to Hero spreadsheet on the Griffin Site at http://www.griffin-helicopters.co.uk/public%20docs/heli%20cost%20to%20fi.xls

I hope it helps.


Pretty much spot on, bar the ever increasing CAA fees. CAA Ground exams are 66 each now, just paid for 6 of them. CPL issue is 231, CPL test fee is 762. Grant of PPL 253, PPL Skill Test fee 185

I note that some companies now charge 2.5% for paying with a Credit Card, multiflight website said they did when I worked out the costs above. With the added VAT, that could add 5% to the overall costs...


Thanks for the sheet, was pretty much exactly what i was hoping from from somewhere! all costs broken down.
I had looked at that site as well but hadnt noticed that!!

Thanks for the PM flinginwings i will certainly do that, when i have a quiet moment and some time alone in the house when i can concentrate!!! i will PM you first.

So what do you guys do for day jobs, and how long have you been at it so far to get to where you are. I am a bus driver and working 6 days a week (solely to fund this venture) i will be earning around 24k a year saving a total of about 550/600 a month and at that rate its going to take decades!!! lol....how does anyone afford to spend so much on helicopter lessons when you could buy a flat for the outlay!?


I hadnt realised that you had to have 250 hours before you could start the FI, so i hadnt factored that into my equations, probably explaining why i couldnt figure how it was so much to get to the FI level!! that solves that little mystery.

Basicly im thinking that there will be no money earned at all until i have the FI rating and can get as many hours/pay as possible from training people, this sound about right? by this time i will have spent around 70k on training and start to earn some of it back?

I know it depends on schools etc, but how many hours can a new trainer expect to get teaching per week/month/year?

I think what you said in your PM flingwings was correct, one answer creates many more questions!!! grrrrr.
_________________
Thanks for your help, Tony
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
flingingwings
H Addict
H Addict


Offline
Joined: Apr 12, 2008
Posts: 280


uk.gif

PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now you are getting closer Very Happy

The number within the PM is my work mobile - its on 24x7. No need to PM, feel free to call when you fancy. If i can't answer I call numbers back anyhow.

Everybody is different. I wont bore with too much detail:

Started flying aged 28, modular route - ppl,cpl, ATPL theory and FI whilst working as a Traffic cop.It took about 18 months. Funded by adding the bill to my existing mortgage. Worked as an FI for about 14 months. Loved the work. Hated my primary employer. Flew about 450-500 hours within that time, and training was busier then. I was pilot number 4, so did little to nothing aside from basic tuition. Then funded a MEIR by begging and borrowing from wherever. Began freelancing, after a contact introduced me to some straightforward twin day VFR work (the contact was the Ops manager there), flew about 4 charters. I was then in that right place at the right time! Freelanced for three and bit months for a major twin engined corporate outfit. Was recommended by them to my current employer. Joined one of the main onshore IFR charter operators as a salaried P2 (co-pilot) with about 800 hrs total time (the only one they've taken to date). Provided with type ratings on the two types operated. 18 months later I was given P1 (captain/command) on the smaller type operated and six months later still I was given P1 on the bigger type. The rest, as the saying goes, is history. Still with them (been here 4 years), employed, salaried, exclusively by the one company

My result - Luck. So not really a huge help.
_________________
 W.Y.S.I.W.Y.G.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Skype Name
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    HeliTorque Forum Index » Wannabes All times are GMT

 
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Sponsors


Billund Air Center

Visit HeliTorque!